Fox Hunting

jinnyj

the cheap leather shoes you wear come from china

the remenants of the uk shoe industry tends to concentrate on the quality market


and they now tend to import the leather anyway


as for


If the general public are upset over the site of a few large, dead animals then they had better get used to it as has been pointed out, dead animals will be dumped as in flytipping simply because farmers will not be able to afford to fork out large amounts.
Click to expand...

yes its quite clear after the foot and mouth disease how the farmers/huntsman look after their animals

you mention class although no one else did but i thought from ca propoganda hunting took in all classess is this another lie then??
 
Having read JinnyJ's comments on this subject I feel I have probably said enough, apart from I am sure many animal lovers would hate to see any animal (sheep, cow, pig or goat) laying in the middle of the road in Brighton with a stake through it's torso whatever the protest was about. Despite what many may think, it is not only horses I personally find lovely! :blink:
 
Yes, all classes do go hunting; in fact the majority of followers of a hunt will be farmers, farmworkers or stablehands, peaople whose income is pretty meagre.

Yes, I do get over emotional about the subject but that is because it is something about which I feel very strongly about having been brought up in a country environment where hunting/shooting/fishing are the norm. It is a tragedy that many animals will be put down, many people will lose their livelihoods and homes and there will be a serious dearth of methods of disposal for animal carcasses.

What was done yesterday was harsh, but it was done in order to show people the stark horror of what will happen in the event of a ban. It wasn't pretty, I know, but it wasn't supposed to be.

Kathy - how can I be making it a class issue by mentioning townies? OK, too generalistic, I know, & probably a little unfair but I get emotional about this subject. I was under the impressions that all different classes lived in towns - from council estates up to rich people with titles?

PR - I'm sorry mate, but all your comments just go to show that you really don't have a clue abou tfox hunting & what goes on. You have obviously been ensnared by the crap that the LACS or Animal Aid or some similar fascist, terrorist operation has been putting out. Maybe if you sat down & learnt the facts about hunting you would look at it differently; it is people with views like yourself who are trying to ban this ancient & magnificent sport when in truth, it doesn't affect your way of life at all - this amounts to a breach of civil liberties.

As was said on a sketch on Rory Bremner on Sunday night - "We don't try to stop you townies smoking crack all day so don't stop us from hunting!" :P :lol:
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Sep 29 2004, 01:46 PM
Having read JinnyJ's comments on this subject I feel I have probably said enough, apart from I am sure many animal lovers would hate to see any animal (sheep, cow, pig or goat) laying in the middle of the road in Brighton with a stake through it's torso whatever the protest was about.
Click to expand...
Kathy, it's not quite as simple as that - just because people can't see what's happening doesn't mean it's not happening. I'm sure so-called "animal lovers" (a terrible phrase, IMO) would love to think that in their lovely, sweet "animal loving" world that dead animal carcasses do not exist; they do. I'm sure they would be even more appalled to see carcasses similar to that horse lying at the side of the road, which is what is likely to happen. I know it's not fluffy & nice, but life simply isn't like that and real life, & truth, can be harsh. Not nice I know, but unfortunately true.
 
SL, I think you may be missing my point. Leaving a dead animal carcass in a road outside The Brighton Conference Centre was not (in my opinion) the best way to inform people of the problem of the dead carcasses should hunting be banned. Why would it? Surely protests are about trying to get a point of view across and to let people know why they are protesting? Educating people about what happens in "the countryside" (to me) does not mean leaving lumps of dead meat in the shape of a horse (or any other animal) in the road and expecting people to immediately understand. It will turn people against the protesters even more. As I stated previously I just think this was an own goal because there are far better ways of getting the message across than they way that was chosen.
Mr. and Mrs Ordinary seeing the picture of the horse in their copy of The Times this morning or whatever paper they read, or seeing it on News at Ten last night, will learn nothing about the reasons behind the carcass being left - why would they? I think it will just turn people away and add to the throng of those that call for hunting to be banned for being cruel. Some people may think it is emotive clap trap talking about "animal lovers" but at least I try and see it from both sides of the argument and if the pro hunting lobby want to get their point across I feel they have made a massive PR mistake this week.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Sep 29 2004, 01:01 PM
I know it's not fluffy & nice, but life simply isn't like that and real life, & truth, can be harsh. Not nice I know, but unfortunately true.
Click to expand...

I know what "real life" is like, believe me me SL, and to infer that other people possibly don't understand is another mistake by those that think they are real experts on the matter. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because someone finds seeing a dead horse in the road with a stake through it's body offensive doesn't mean they don't have a clue about the wider issues.
 
Now what is really starting to piss me off from both Prince Regent and Derek is the inference that most farmers were somehow deliberately spreading foot and mouth and were completely indifferent to the fate of their stock

yes its quite clear after the foot and mouth disease how the farmers/huntsman look after their animals
Click to expand...

Just what are you implying, PR? There were maybe a few (and they were a few too many) cases of farmers deliberately trying to infect their stock to claim compensation but to infer that it was widespread is downright defamatory..

As those who were on this board at the time will know, I was TWO FIELDS away from my neighbour who was taken out by Effing M. I stood and watched them slaughter a complete field of sheep (owned by the S W winner of the Farming & Wildlife Agricultural annual award) - they'd just completed their organic conversion and all their stock went, along with hundreds of thousands of other animals in the SW. When I moved here 4 years ago, I was surrounded by six dairy farms - now there's only one - due to the depression and effects of an industry in crisis and with F & M delivering the final blow.

Suicides were up in this area (some very cleverly disguised so that their families wouldn't lose out on the insurance), we all lived in fear that the next time we or the vets checked our stock, one would be lame or pouring saliva from the mouth and I don't know of one single farmer (and I know a few...) who wanted to get taken out - and if anyone came on farm without permission or disinfecting, boy they knew about it! It was a disaster and I can't imagine what it must have been like to watch your healthy stock being destroyed - it was bad enough watching someone else having to go through it.

Deliberately spreading F & M ? Maybe in a very, very few cases but the vast majority - just like in every single walk of life including the Armed Forces and Pensioners Paradise - kept to the rules and did everything they could to prevent getting the disease. There are always bad apples.
 
League against Cruel Sports a fascist terrorist organisation :blink: - frankly that is about as sensible as equating the Countryside Alliance with Al qaeda .
 
shadow leader

i dont want to get into a slanging match with you as to be quite honest i find on other subjects i can agree with or at least see where your coming from.

but please u may and obviously do disgree with any organisation that has an opposing view to
hunting but to call or imply they are terrorist or fascist organisations may show you are struggling (not that i belong to these or indeed any other organisations)

and yes u are correct fox hunting dosnt affect me personally i dont know a woman whose been raped so that issue dosnt affect me personally either not that i dont feel disgust at men whom rape women

i note you call it an ancient sport arent you supposed to be claiming it is the only human way to cull foxes???

songsheet

there were quite a few farmers as u say at it and the farmers union whilst bleating for morepublic money refused at any time to acknowledge this and surely it is not so coincidental that foot and mouth wipes out so much livestock over such a period oftime in this country but in other countries it seems to be so much better controlled (ex france and ireland) they may not have spread it but they certainly gave the impression compensation was the name of the game

i can also add what about bse or mad cow disease can u recall how that started was it not a farmer whom thought his cow was suffering from it but rather than kill it and lose the money he rushed it down to an abatoir in essex so he could sell it??

and werent many abatoirs closed down becuase they broke so many regulations??

and wasnt bse started becuase they , cows that is,
were fed the remains of other animals??


and yes i know they bought their feed in unmarked bags

but surely if they were so caring about their stock and knowing what feeding them animal remains would do check with the feed suppliers what they were actually buying??
 
There is no other comparable industry in the UK that is so controlled and bound by bureaucracy as farming. Foot and Mouth originated in the Pig Farm that was badly run (and with the regular inspections we all go through, there was no excuse for the bureaucrats in charge not to have closed this guy down).

Of course it is easy to say in hindsight re BSE that foodstuffs destined for farmstock should have their contents listed for those buying them to see but whatever happened to trust? Many of these feed companies were well-known and respected and most farmers would pretty naturally have bought feed in without it even crossing their minds what could happen.

How often, in all honesty, do you check food that you buy (meat from a supermarket counter for example) and ask what went into it! You don't, because you trust the source it comes from. So did they - wrongly as it turned out.

And of course, you've never, ever sold a house or a car knowing it has a fault without declaring it to the purchaser... hmmm, right! I genuinely don't know the facts concerning the first BSE case and whether the farmer in question knew how serious the problem was - he certainly wouldn't have known what it was - perhaps someone can inform me on that one?

The regulations applying to abbatoirs are stringent to the point that they weren't closed down - they went under, because the costs of running them were prohibitive - a vet has to be there full-time during slaughtering for a start and then there are the Health Inspectors on a daily basis too, plus the disposal regulations for blood and bone are very strict - you think France and Ireland operate their abattoirs to the same standards - in your dreams, do they!!

Organic meat can't be slaughtered at the same time/day as non-organic and to meet those particular regs has become too expensive, so organic slaughterhouses are now hundreds of food miles apart - terrific for the animals destined for slaughter there...

OK, it's a very boring subject and farmers have been their own worst enemies because they tend to prefer to work as individuals and don't 'unionise' well - the NFU often gets it very wrong - and some farmers shouldn't keep livestock and are uncaring but the majority are hard-working people just tryng to earn a living and the difference is that the rest of us do benefit from the way they husband the countryside around us all, so they are owed some respect in my opinion.
 
A very good reply Songsheet, but I feel it is unfortunately lost on people who don't understand farmers, farming and living in a rural environment with traditional roots.

Sure they are educated enough to know basically how the food gets from the farm to the dining room table and therefore think there is little more to it, just a leisurely life, green wellies, a Range Rover and of course a pack of hounds.


.
 
Speaking as an urban yobbo who gets the shakes if he drives outside the boundaries of a city or town and wouldn't live in a village if you paid me, I'm well aware how meat reaches the table.

I once watched a documentary series entitled ''Camberwick Green'' and this excellent snapshot on rural life once devoted an entire episode to a chap called Farmer Bell.

Farming is clearly piss easy, Bell managed it in his sleep, and never once went hunting. :lol:
 
Griff,
there is much more to FarmIng than green wellies,of course green wellies are useful for putting the hind legs of sheep in them,whilst the wearer is shagging it.

I digress.

One of the most interesting aspects of farming is the attention to detail when it comes to scamming monies from Europe (that nasty place just outside Dover)The farmers have been sending their human offspring to various schools to learn all about the delights of the various ways of eliciting unwarranted millions to offset the costs of removing millions of dead animals from the countryside,dead animals,i may add,that have been put in that position by the f-----g farmers themselves.

No,come on,credit where it's due,
 
songsheet


but whatever happened to trust? Many of these feed companies were well-known and respected and most farmers would pretty naturally have bought feed in without it even crossing their minds what could happen.
Click to expand...

your last sentence is exactly what im saying they show a lack of due care to their herds

most businessess (and i class most but not all farms as businesess) have some sort of quality control in place and surely asking for the contents of the feed they were buying wouldcome under quality control


and hiding up a few dents in my car or omitting to mention(when selling a house) during the period when children come and go from school are fairly noisy periods is not exactly in mymind at least comparable with the pictures of cows being burnt due to yet another outbreak of foot and mouth or bse

if farmer giles couldcut out this nonsense about town v country and concentrate on his tasks (looking after the beasts under his care) perhaps in future we will have a few less health scares about our food and of course as a bonus a few less festivals cancelled :D :D
 
Kathy, I'm not saying you don't have a clue, but I do think that saying that "Animal lovers will be appalled to see this" smacks of naivete....it's a fact of life, it ain't pretty, but it may well become a common site in the future in the event of a ban, this is what they were trying to get across. Also, to be honest, if Mr & Mrs Ordinary buy The Times only to look at the pictures & not read the accompanying articles then there's no hope for any of us!

Prince Regent - I don't want to get into a slanging match, this is a subject that I will defend to the hilt with anyone as I feel so strongly about it. Animal Aid is most definitely a fascist organisation, try looking at their website! They like to set up stalls in shopping centres run by nobs that look like Swampy and display pictures with the objective of getting everyone anti-hunting, anti-animal testing (for bloody medical matters, tossers :angy: ), anti-shooting, anti-fishing, anti-racing (yes, look at their website, all racing is cruel & should be banned), they want HRT banned as it is cruel to mares (nevermind that HRT is manufactured from synthetic materials and has been for a while now) and they want everyone to turn vegetarian. If that isn't fascist & dictatorial I'd love to know what is!! As a matter of fact, I had to be dragged away from an Animal Aid stall last weekend as I was wanting to start a fight but bloody Paul wouldn't let me!!!! :angy: :lol: Ok, it was bit of an exaggeration to call LACS fascist but they do publicise a load of so-called "facts" that are simply bullshit!

I also think that you are being very harsh to say that
there were quite a few farmers as u say at it
Click to expand...
as that simply isn't true. What Jules is saying is that there may have been one or two, but nowhere near as many as has been reported in the press (hmmmm.......trying to defend Tone's arse after he made the situation ten times worse by his actions/lack of them? :brows: ). It was a terrible time for all of us during F&M and not just because of the lack of racing! I lived right in the thick of it, the countryside was like a graveyard, we weren't allowed to ride our horses out, we weren't allowed to walk our dogs, we weren't allowed to walk on any footpaths/bridalways/by-ways whatsoever. This went on for months and months. I also watched my friends lose their animals, their livelihoods, and sink into despair as they watched their world disappear.
 
SL, Mr. and Mrs Joe Public Animal Lover possibly won't "understand" why a dead horse with a stake through it's stomach was left outside The Brighton Conference centre. This was done in a busy town in broad daylight. This needs to be kept in context. I certainly am not disputing the wider issues about animal carcasses of which I am fully aware but IF people want to put over a point of view in a visual way, leaving a dead horse is not (in my opinion) the way to do it. It was offensive and I think detracted from the message the protesters were trying to make. The girls jumping around in the sea the same afternoon with no clothes on probably got far more positive publicity even if Joe Public did not quite understand why they were dressed as "Fuffy Bunnies". B)

Songsheet can speak from the heart on this subject is her livelihood and I woudn't dispute a word of what she has said BUT this thread was about the use of a dead horse and I again think this was a home goal and resulted in negative publicity for the greater cause.
 
PR - you still didn't answer my question - do you ask at your local butchers or supermarket what exactly goes into the products you're buying there? If not, then you are acting on trust in just the same way farmers were. Don't forget, they had no idea about BSE - none of us did until it hit.

It's so easy in hindsight to say that of ocurse they should have asked what goes into the feedstuffs but when it's listed as 'ash' would you automatically assume it was of animal, rather than plant origins?

'Farmer Giles' as you so quaintly put it (and underline beautifully the fact that you do believe in a countryside v town conflict by your very use of such a stereotypical description), would just love to be able to cut out the 'nonsense' between town and country. And less bureaucracy, fewer regulations, the willingness of the British people to pay a fair price for food properly raised instead of insisting on cheap food imported from countries with far worse animal husbandry standards than ours - well, that would probably just about do it. Oh and yes, the freedom to pursue a traditional way of life, which may or may not involve hunting with dogs, or shooting or fishing, in the little recreational time they do get would also be appreciated...
 
Sorry the thread got 'hijacked', Kathy but wasn't me who introduced the topic of Effing M and BSE!! Just thought the balance needed redressing, is all.

And while I disagree with the use of the stake through the horse as beng unnecessary and disrespectful to the animal (whether horse, cow or sheep), I don't disagree with the concept of the public being made to realise that fallen stock is an important issue (as the Burns Report stated) and therefore shock tactics will be employed.

Actually, it's going to be people like me who will end up having to deal with the problem - I've already had Jo Public fly-tipping on my land (a set of decrepit kitchen units and a metal sink) this summer (there's a public tip four miles away...) and I somehow doubt it was one of my rural neighbours who did it... and the next stage on are those people who are not going to pay for the proper disposal of their deadstock (ponies, sheep, goats for example) and who will target accessible yet out-of-the-way farms like mine and tip the carcases there.

And that will mean barbed wire and locked gates and blocked up private lay bys to prevent it happening, which is not, in my view, exactly good for public relations between farmers and everyone else...
 
songsheet

the use of the term farmer giles is not to highlight any belief in town v country i can assure you

as regards to your reply


u are right the farmers did bring this up as hindsight thats mypoint they should have checked first i dont really want to put up in public my occupation but believe me there are millions upon millions of regualtions to contend with for most occupations for example are u aware that there are regulations concerning the importation of toilet paper into europe. best complied with before iimportation and not wait and find out after the event and whilst it is true in one instance a supplier including the embassy of his country lied through their back teeth to me at least when i had the customery visit for hm customs and excise i had enough documentation to prove barring following people around day and night i couldnt have done more

yet the farmers by your own admission seem to have made no checks whatsover

and as regards to ash no i wouldnt assume it was animal plant or cigarette ash i would have asked



and whilst its true if they had phoned they could be lied to there still point about due care being done and wouldthe suppliers lie knowing they could then be sued??

and as for letting them have less regulations to contend with i dont think so



u are right though i do not interogate shopkeepers or supermarket managers when purchasing goods but there again im not at the time purchasing for mass distribution

and in awnser toyour last comment bse was known about before the outbreak not that thats the only diease/virus they should be checking for

whilst i as u probablyare aware disagree with you about them continuing their barbaric sports of fox hunting stag hunting i do agree that with the general public (of both town and country) obession on price as their only buying factor does put our farmers at a disadvantage

so as quality is the only point they can use to sell their product going back to my main thrust i would have thought more stress should have been put on animal husbandry including what they are feeding their beasts with
 
Kathy makes the point that the staked animal had the effect of disgusting people and doing the cause no good was valid simply because people did not understand the reason.

Songsheet said in her first posting that it would be her last on this subject.
The site was down when I wanted someone to offer me a price, I'd have taken 1/10 :D
 
Hijack the thread away Songsheet. Debate is debate on whichever thread it is and if people want to know more about what really goes on out in the countryside for example then you are more qualified than most to tell them. Whether people like what they read or they don't doesn't really matter - if they have facts and relevent points relating to the discussion they may feel better informed even if it doesn't change their view one iota. People such as Mr. and Mrs Ordinary from Brighton sometimes need to learn more about issues, and to be able to discuss them with people that actually know to then be able to make a qualified judgement on a particular subject. Seeing a dead horse with a stake in his belly in the middle of the road whilst perhaps out walking with their 3yo daughter is not perhaps the best way to make an important statement. People may just be horrified and disgusted that the people from the countryside could do such a thing. I am sure many will never change their views on hunting or the countryside BUT at least if they are armed with some background knowledge and facts they may begin to understand why so many hundreds of thousands of people are up in arms especially on the issue of hunting with dogs, even if they still do not agree with the practice in principle.
 
It is difficult to imagine an action more likely to backfire in the context of this debate
 
Back
Top