Frankel

sunybay

sunybay

At the Start
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
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Madrid
Seeing the Moulin

I think Canford was very nearly of his best in the Sussex and Frankel is the best horse in 30 years

All his victims winning absolutely everything when he is not running

Dubawi Gold Goodwood mile race
Excelebration Mooulin, Hungerfor and German Guineas
Canford multiple gr1 winner
Dream Ahead Sprint Cup and July Cup
Zofanny sh in a gr1 in France
Stron Suit Lennox and Jersey
Neebras group race in GG



2yo victims
Roderick Oc, gr1 in france and Irish Guineas
Trasury Beach Iris Derby and Arlington race
Klammer Horris Hill winner
Genius Beast Sandown trial
Nathaniel King George



and so and so
Frankel could be the best horse ever
 
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sunybay said:
Seeing the Moulin

I think Canford was very nearly of his best in the Sussex and Frankel is the best horse in 30 years
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I think that's the key to how Frankel goes down in history. I've watched the Sussex a number of times and CC travels as well as I've ever seen him before Frankel is asked to put the hammer down.
 
Two seasons ago there was a colt called Sea The Stars who beat every horse who raced against him, and those horses in their turn won every top race that Sea The Stars did not contest. He beat a list of top milers and middle distance horses as long as your arm.

He won six Gr 1 races in six months over distances from 8f to 12f.

Frankel is an extremely good horse, but you cannot say - not yet, at least - that he is better than Sea The Stars. In fact, it will never be possible to say such a thing with any confidence, given that he is a miler. A champion miler, a wonderful miler, a spectacular miler, a fabulous miler, but not more than that.
 
Frankel still has the time on his side, one more run this year and possible he stays in training.

I was a fan of STS, also watched Dubai Milenium, Dancing Brave and many other champions but the feeling of seeing Frankel is stronger than watching those horses.
 
Euronymous said:
I think that's the key to how Frankel goes down in history. I've watched the Sussex a number of times and CC travels as well as I've ever seen him before Frankel is asked to put the hammer down.
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In fairness to Canford Cliffs, that wasn't Richard Hughes' view - at all.
Take nothing away from Frankel, but even a straight-line reading of the form shows CC lost 2.5l to Rio De La Plata, against his previous run.
 
Hughes was motionless on the horse until Frankel's burst - is he really claiming he wasn't travelling until that moment?

It's wasn't CC's true form because Frankel took him out of his comfort zone. The only way he could have showed his best is if he'd been ridden for second.
 
We have been blessed with two such phenomenal horses in pretty quick succession. Bit early to compare just yet. Frankel has a little more to do outside his generation for me yet. In saying that he is eminently capable of putting in a performance of the ages before he finishes.
 
From RP, 6th August:
"The consolation of having an explanation for Canford Cliffs's below-par performance at Goodwood was wiped out by the realisation that the best horse I've ever ridden will not get the chance to redeem himself.

He was a brilliant racehorse and the only regret I have is that there are now many who think he wasn't good enough to compete with Frankel. A lot of people described Frankel as way better than Canford after the Sussex, and that was heartbreakingfor me because I knew in my heart and soul that I hadn't been riding the real Canford Cliffs. In the circumstances he did incredibly well to finish second.

From the time I first sat on him I thought he was the best horse I had ever ridden, so it was beautiful that he fulfilled all his potential on the track. He was a great horse, a gorgeous horse and also such a lovely horse to sit on, probably the best mover I've ever ridden. In fact, it's because he always moved so well that I knew immediately at Goodwood something must be wrong."

Hard not believe him too, given that - in a sport full of half-truths and hyperbole - his Saturday column is a beacon of frankness and veracity.
 
If that's the case I don't understand why there was no sign of anything amiss until he was asked the question. I think his love for the horse has clouded his judgement here - after all he's probably the only top class one he's ever sat on.
 
His Saturday column, from what I've seen of it, is full of nonsense which involves every horse he's riding is 'in with a great chance'. Given that, I wouldn't believe what he's said above for a second. The Hannon team are always poor when it comes to being gracious in defeat. They always trot out the same old 'we're not frightened to have another go' 'it could've been different on another day' or 'ground/track/distance was not quite his best today'.
 
You pays your money, and you takes your choice.:)
Imo, his column is one of the most down-to-earth, factual and informative I've read in many years of perusing the racing press, and to lump him with such as the younger Hannon is just plain laughable.
 
Euronymous said:
I think that's the key to how Frankel goes down in history. I've watched the Sussex a number of times and CC travels as well as I've ever seen him before Frankel is asked to put the hammer down.
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We are evidently watching a different race - Hughes is plainly unhappy after a furlong or so - just compare his body language with how he appears in both the Queen Anne and the 2010 Sussex , he is squeezing and nudging.

I don't think that diminishes Frankel in anyway as he was not really extended in the Sussex . CC in top form would have pushed him harder but I expect the only real difference would have been a bigger gap to R de la P as the Queen Anne form suggests.

I agree with reet hard about Hughes' column .
 
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reet hard said:
You pays your money, and you takes your choice.:)
Imo, his column is one of the most down-to-earth, factual and informative I've read in many years of perusing the racing press, and to lump him with such as the younger Hannon is just plain laughable.
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Spot on. One of the few reasons to buy the RP.
 
reet hard said:
You pays your money, and you takes your choice.:)
Imo, his column is one of the most down-to-earth, factual and informative I've read in many years of perusing the racing press, and to lump him with such as the younger Hannon is just plain laughable.
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Even after he was retired immediately by Coolmore? With that PR machine behind him and taking into account the ever bullish nature of his stable?

I don't believe a word of it. Frankel is the better horse. Coolmore know that as well. Better to retire now with an excuse than take another shoeing at Ascot.
 
Aragorn said:
Even after he was retired immediately by Coolmore? With that PR machine behind him and taking into account the ever bullish nature of his stable?

I don't believe a word of it. Frankel is the better horse. Coolmore know that as well. Better to retire now with an excuse than take another shoeing at Ascot.
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I have no doubt that Frankel was the better horse . Your assertions however strike me as utter fantasy .

1 He was not retired immediately .

2 He was never travelling with the same fluency and hung across the track

3 A particular injury was diagnosed - are you alleging the vet invented this ?

4 His margin of superiority over R de la P was halved despite not being fully extended at Ascot .
 
Frankel won in tremendous style alright, but let no one believe this was Canford at his best. I'm not saying that Frankel wouldn't have won anyway but Canford Cliffs was a rattling good miler.
 
...meanwhile Frankel is 3/1 on for the QE II with Coral... we're not going to get rich on this unfortunately.
 
Ardross said:
I have no doubt that Frankel was the better horse . Your assertions however strike me as utter fantasy .

1 He was not retired immediately .

2 He was never travelling with the same fluency and hung across the track

3 A particular injury was diagnosed - are you alleging the vet invented this ?

4 His margin of superiority over R de la P was halved despite not being fully extended at Ascot .
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Ok Ardross.

1. A week later. Bt you can be pedantic if you like.
2. He did the same thing in the greenham and guineas but was fine. Of course you can believe the fantasy created for you.
3. An injury was diagnosed but was it really that serious? No. When did it happen? Probably when he was taken out of his comfort zone.
4. Rdp has been improving all year.

Yes he might have picked up a slight knock but if Coolmore believed they could beat him they would have had another crack, they tried hard enough with STS. I prefer not to believe a lot of PR.
 
Richard Hughes owes no particular allegiance to Coolmore, very rarely rides for them, and is only associated in this instance as they bought half of Canford Cliffs from under him, so why he should be considered part of their "hype machine" escapes me completely?
He has never once suggested that he would have beaten Frankel in the Sussex, merely that CC didn't give his true running, and as he knew the horse much better than most, and has gained a reputation for telling it as it is (through his RP column), I see no reason to disbelieve him.
Fwiw, my view is the horse was being niggled during the first 2 furlongs - when there was no pace at all - and that had nothing to do with the level of opposition.
 
Aragorn said:
Ok Ardross.

1. A week later. Bt you can be pedantic if you like.
2. He did the same thing in the greenham and guineas but was fine. Of course you can believe the fantasy created for you.
3. An injury was diagnosed but was it really that serious? No. When did it happen? Probably when he was taken out of his comfort zone.
4. Rdp has been improving all year.

Yes he might have picked up a slight knock but if Coolmore believed they could beat him they would have had another crack, they tried hard enough with STS. I prefer not to believe a lot of PR.
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You should have stuck to point 3 and missed out the rest. Weakens your case. I particularly look forward to seeing how point 1 works out with my boss. :lol:
 
simmo said:
You should have stuck to point 3 and missed out the rest. Weakens your case. I particularly look forward to seeing how point 1 works out with my boss. :lol:
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Point 4 is particularly funny - I assume that one is in as a joke ... :lol:

As for point 3 , horses do not generally suffer injuries just because the horse in front is going faster than they can . CC was never travelling with his usual fluency .

The basis of Aragorn's post is never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
 
Simon said:
His Saturday column, from what I've seen of it, is full of nonsense which involves every horse he's riding is 'in with a great chance'. Given that, I wouldn't believe what he's said above for a second. The Hannon team are always poor when it comes to being gracious in defeat. They always trot out the same old 'we're not frightened to have another go' 'it could've been different on another day' or 'ground/track/distance was not quite his best today'.
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This is so true about the Hannon team and why I have little respect for both senior and junior. Spouting rubbish and sly digs at Frankel way before their "best horse ever" was blown away. A lot of what has been discussed here has been covered before and after the demolition on the downs. What is completely clear is that CC was taken out of his comfort zone very quickly as many other horses have already (ie the complete field in the 2000g!) found to their cost. CC was not pulled up, and though I agree not at his best, he still managed to finish 2nd. RDP is a decent benchmark, and I do not believe the winning distance would have been much less if at all. Basically the Hannon team got what they deserved on the day - a good spanking for showing no class and no respect to a horse who is clearly in another league. What next from that pair ? Harbour Watch to destroy Frankel in 2012, ha ha watch this space...
 
I was kind of hoping we'd hear no more of the destruction of Canford Cliffs by Frankel that day.
After all this time & even semi-dreaming of the race(!), that's the conclusion I've come to, that it was 'destruction'. Given that he wasn't completely at his best, nevertheless I think we witnessed some spooky horse behaviour & CC didn't want to be anywhere near the big horse and made himself scarce.
Yes, a weird idea but it was a weird event.
 
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