Free Otis Ferry

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Dave - as mentioned earlier citing links provided by www.petakillsanimals.com and www.furcommission.com and other such websites does nothing for your argument (which is deeply flawed on so many levels).

If you really want to define "indigenous people" then I suspect that not many of the huntsmen you refer to are truly indigenous. Remember the various invasions of 200AD to 1100AD which forced most of the indigenous population out of the UK (or at least to Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria), should we include those in our definition? Immigrants from Ireland, the US, France, Germany etc. over the last couple of hundred years?

The tribes you list above have lived in their areas for thousands and thousands of years - we however have only been here a few hundred (unless you can trace your family tree back to the Normans).

As Hamm mentioned Dave if you say you aren't going to post again then why bother?
 
In adition my gilfrind Eliza is a leading academic expert in climate change and sustainability. Again I would link here an image of her with her Sami reindeer fur but it would be spam

Not bad...

Got any other pics...?

Preferably in a warmer enviroment .. Beach, sauna or something
 
I am currently in negotiation with a Sami designer to add reindeer leather trousers to my PonyGurl Couture

Ive read something about that stuff somewhere...
 
I'll just say that I am possibly the biggest hunt supporter on here but Dave you are really embarrassing to the cause. Making such stupid statements isnt helping you or won't persuade anyone on here to change their mind regarding hunting. I also would stick otis ferry in prison and throwaway the key as he is also an embarrassment. There are a lot more people out there doing a great job and keeping out of the public eye, as has been known for years you will never change an antis mind and vice versa.

AS for the hunting ban, yes it is a load of nonsense and the sooner it is changed the better. I wont name my hunt but we are still hunting as normal, there was over 1000 foot followers on Boxing Day and in 2 years i've never seen an anti. This afternoon I stood and watched "Charlie" run past a group of us, hounds a distance behind, if we were doing as the government tell us to do he wouldn't have stood a chance as one of the group would have shot it, as it was he managed to go to ground and escape. It was a fantastic sight to see and belive it of not we were glad to see him getaway, it proved he was not meant to be caught, he is fit and strong and will continue to thrive.

As for me I doubt i'll be able to show my face hunting again as my old boss told my "future husband" what we call him, my face went as red as his coat :D very embarrassing!!!
 
Yet again I get insult and inablity to either read the lnks I give or personal insult.

Okay Simmo....ignore what I say just read the evidence. Go back to the swedish study the world health organisation report which they have tried to surpress.

or check the studies linked here
http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/asthma.htm


extracts from conclusions of these studies


'The number of children whose blood levels showed effects from second hand smoke declined by about one-fifth to one-half between 1988 and 2000, depending on their levels of exposure. Those figures are obtained by tracking the amount of cotinine, a breakdown product of nicotine in blood.

But the report also found that the percentage of children getting asthma has doubled in two decades, rising from 3.6 percent in 1980 to 8.7 percent, or 6.3 million children by 2001.'


another
' “Our clean living ways perhaps might be leading to this global rise in asthma and allergies,” Liu said. Most people assume asthma results from air pollution or other dirt in the environment. But it may be caused by just the opposite. The latest research shows the cleaner the environment, the more cases of asthma. It has to do with our immune systems'

another
"The rise in respiratory problems could not be linked to household risk factors such as passive smoking, gas cooking, pets or low parental education attainment because those factors declined over the period, the team reports."

from the swedish study
"In a multivariate analysis, children of mothers who smoked at least 15 cigarettes a day tended to have lower odds for suffering from allergic rhino-conjunctivitis, allergic asthma, atopic eczema and food allergy, compared to children of mothers who had never smoked

another
We've all heard that smoking and second-hand smoke cause asthma, but a growing body of evidence is challenging the veracity of this old saw. The most recent study to exonerate smoking and tobacco smoke as a cause of asthma was published in the British Medical Journal July 8, 2000."

another
"Reducing allergen exposure, although intuitively obvious as a management approach, has had a less than stellar track record when applied to asthma control in clinical practice.... Even though allergen levels can be significantly reduced through use of such methods [as high efficiency particulate removers, vacuuming, and pet washing], clinical disease changes very little in response."

another
"Most asthma, especially in children, appears to involve allergic inflammation of the airway mucosa. But clinicians have long suspected that viral infection of the respiratory tract might be important not only as a cause of asthma exacerbations but perhaps also as a cause or contributor to the pathogenesis of asthma itself."

"Until recently, bacterial pathogens were not suspected as important contributors to asthma, except by a handful of epidemiological investigators who noted a strong association between serological evidence of infection with C. pneumoniae and asthma."

another shows
no association between asthma in children and Environmental Tobacco Smoke. A pet, for example, is much more likely to be associated with child asthma than ETS


Go on. Read the actual evidence. yes million of people belive it to be true that smoking causes asthma. But every reliable study has shown the opposite. That has happened because the medical authorities pharmacuticals media and government have thought...perhaps with good intention...that the risk of smoking is so bad in other ways, that it justifies lying to the publc and demonising it of things it is innocent of. Nevertheless; you are believing that lie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now exactly the same thing has happened with foxhunting and fur. The idealogcal elite, so driven by their own moral code, have lied and fabricated evidence to perpetuate their policies. Just LOOK AT THIS. A a team of some of the top animal welfare scientists , so respected by animal rights groups when it suits them, were comissioned by Brussels to check the welfare on fur farms. Obviously they expected them to conclude it was cruel. bcuse the politicians BELIEVED it was. Of couse, the farms were totally exhonerted. They found incredbly good animal welfare . Did you know for example that mink are the only domesticated animals weaned correctly....horses don't get that; and often suffer pychologcal problems because of it.
http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out74_en.pdf
Read from page six as I said. It is the welfare scientists complaining that their findings were doctored for 'political end'.
Corruption lies and propaganda at the highest level...and when the scientists published this the media would not touch it. Why...well I asked a top jounalist I HAD GIVEN IT TO. The answer is no surprise;
'because the papers make so much money from animal rights charities in advertising'

If they lied over things like hunting fur and smoking....what are they capable of over things like Iraq.
When they want to ban racing...and many Labour mps do
eg here is my own mp
'horse racing is an unecessary abusive and expliotative industry throughout'
they willdo the same. Animal rights groups will run campaigns against the grand national etc with huge advertising budgets and then the drones will believe it. Of course the evidnce will be fabricated exagerated etc and counter evidence ignored. The message will be suitably packaged for the masses and the National banned; followed by steeplechasing.
the rel en for this will never be known by the masses. It is the same reason as banning foxhunting and trying to kill animal farming. It's a range war. Lot of prime development land racecourses.

and its the same with the governments friends the pharmacuticals. They want you to hhave their drugs not the tobacco companies. ThE government meanwhile have developed the most outrageuosly unfair tax In history by being able to demonise it. The total revenue from tobacco tax is around twelve billion a year. Four times the cost of estimated 'smoking related disease' to the NHS. Wonder what they are gong to have to demonise to get two hundred billion of taxpayers money back for bailing out the banks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for shadow leader's response.
'What's the point in responding to him? He's only after a reaction anyway and a lot of the tripe written within is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response'

You really think I would go to all this trouble for a response.
I AM JUST GIVING YOU THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS ASKED FOR.
In doing that I have given you academic and scientific studies instead of the propaganda and faith many of you have regurgitated.
I have done that purely out of an obligation to fellow horse racing fans to inform.

NOT ONE piece of evidence has been given in response.
As a debate, it is like trying to argue with jehovah's witnesses except they aren't so rude.
As I said those of you with open minds....ignore my intrpreation if you will....but check all the links and make up your own mind.
So shadow leader...what bit is 'TRIPE' exactly.
and when you respond, I would like acedemic studies to support any assasination of my evidence; not heresay propaganda and bad manners.
I would like the same respect and work I have shown to you and evidence sought and presented...otherwise, you have lost the debate.

I realise that challnging preconceived secure ideas and blind faith in what you told is never easy; but I doing it here out of respect for people here in racing and simply for truth.
And as I have exposed much of what people believe as lies in thorough detail, don't you think it my worth your while at least considering after reading the links.
Your government and media have lied to you; not me.
 
Dave - as mentioned earlier citing links provided by www.petakillsanimals.com and www.furcommission.com and other such websites does nothing for your argument (which is deeply flawed on so many levels).

If you really want to define "indigenous people" then I suspect that not many of the huntsmen you refer to are truly indigenous. Remember the various invasions of 200AD to 1100AD which forced most of the indigenous population out of the UK (or at least to Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria), should we include those in our definition? Immigrants from Ireland, the US, France, Germany etc. over the last couple of hundred years?

The tribes you list above have lived in their areas for thousands and thousands of years - we however have only been here a few hundred (unless you can trace your family tree back to the Normans).

As Hamm mentioned Dave if you say you aren't going to post again then why bother?

how far back do you want to go irish stamp.
in fact, many south american tribal traditons are post spanish ; in fact some new.
The sport of foxhuntng in thE uk developed out of traditions the normans learned from the ceLTs. THIS HaS SHaPED THE COUNTRYSIDE WE LOVE. So in fact the tradition at least of the spirit of the hunt; based in chivalry nd 'sporting' chance, are older than many perceived primitive tribes often the result of post aztec/spanish decay.
YES I CAN TRACE MY FAMILY TREE BACK TO THE NORMANS AND CELTS.
 
Is anybody claiming that smoking causes asthma? Is not the claim that people who are asthmatic suffer heightened discomfort from smoking (or second hand smoke).
 
I'll just say that I am possibly the biggest hunt supporter on here but Dave you are really embarrassing to the cause. Making such stupid statements isnt helping you or won't persuade anyone on here to change their mind regarding hunting. I also would stick otis ferry in prison and throwaway the key as he is also an embarrassment. There are a lot more people out there doing a great job and keeping out of the public eye, as has been known for years you will never change an antis mind and vice versa.

AS for the hunting ban, yes it is a load of nonsense and the sooner it is changed the better. I wont name my hunt but we are still hunting as normal, there was over 1000 foot followers on Boxing Day and in 2 years i've never seen an anti. This afternoon I stood and watched "Charlie" run past a group of us, hounds a distance behind, if we were doing as the government tell us to do he wouldn't have stood a chance as one of the group would have shot it, as it was he managed to go to ground and escape. It was a fantastic sight to see and belive it of not we were glad to see him getaway, it proved he was not meant to be caught, he is fit and strong and will continue to thrive.

As for me I doubt i'll be able to show my face hunting again as my old boss told my "future husband" what we call him, my face went as red as his coat :D very embarrassing!!!

wha excatlY have i sAid that is stUpid. If yoU mean it is unfamiliar to you that is different...but I have backed everything I have said with academic evidence.
some of us will not not break the law but will fight to have it overturned as your path will fail; it lying down and taking it and sometimes you have to stand up against injustice before they start picking on other minorities...halal meat for instance.
I have no interest in hunting myself... see the bigger pictue and speak from a conservation and libertarian perspective.
 
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Is anybody claiming that smoking causes asthma? Is not the claim that people who are asthmatic suffer heightened discomfort from smoking (or second hand smoke).
DISCOMFORT IS DIFFERENT.
WHEN IT IS CLAIMED THE THAT DISCMFORT CAUSES PHYSICAL PROBLEMS THATS WHERE THE PROBLEM LAYS AND YET THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE PROPAGANDA.
Hence as I said
'repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth' goebbels

I am uncomfortable around labour party people but dont invent lies to say they make me ill to ban them from being in the same room.:D
 
how far back do you want to go irish stamp.
in fact, many south american tribal traditons are post spanish ; in fact some new.
The sport of foxhuntng in thE uk developed out of traditions the normans learned from the ceLTs. THIS HaS SHaPED THE COUNTRYSIDE WE LOVE. So in fact the tradition at least of the spirit of the hunt; based in chivalry nd 'sporting' chance, are older than many perceived primitive tribes often the result of post aztec/spanish decay.
YES I CAN TRACE MY FAMILY TREE BACK TO THE NORMANS AND CELTS.

Good luck with the family tree research then Dave - I'm struggling and we've only got back to the 1850's.

Which part of the rolling hills, deep river channels and flood plains did the fox hunters create?

I love the scenery, the forests, trees, hills, mountains, the wildlife (yep that's the wildlife you're trying to kill Dave).
 
An interesting (if totally irrelevant) fact, garnered from Diarmuid Gavin's (the gardner) programme on the genetic profile of the Irish, is that Britain has been inhabited for some 700,000 years, yet Ireland for only 10,000. Also that the first inhabitants of Ireland came from the Basque region in Spain.

Ye feckers had 690,000 years to take over Ireland without any resistance but you couldn't be arsed until you see someone else wants it.
 
yet again insults without any attempt to give counter evidence or argument; or dispute or probably even read the evidence I have given in links. If you want to believe your asthma is caused by cigarette smoke you can but the scentific evidence in the two most thorough studies does not back it up. Continue to suffer.

The tripe part, Dr Dave, comes from you TELLING me (I know you love caps) that cigarette smoke doesn't aggravate the asthma I have; according to you it's entirely psychosomatic since cigarette smoke doesn't case asthma attacks and yet you ask for 'evidence'. I don't need any more evidence than struggling to breathe and having an attack, thank you very much - that's good enough for me.

As for your "continue to suffer" statement, words fail me.

I can't believe I bothered to respond, I shan't in future so address nothing further towards me.
 
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Good luck with the family tree research then Dave - I'm struggling and we've only got back to the 1850's.

Which part of the rolling hills, deep river channels and flood plains did the fox hunters create?

I love the scenery, the forests, trees, hills, mountains, the wildlife (yep that's the wildlife you're trying to kill Dave).


Try the fox coverts; the hedgerows; and the remaining woodland. As it clearly states in the university of kent study I referred you to and David Bellamy points out.
The point I was making is that Foxhunting is a traditional practice that maintains the existing landscape.
The other features you refer to are also the result of protection because of shooting and fishing. This is what traditional practice means; and its the same the world over. Contrast this with urban culture and its destructiveness desopite its alienated and hypocritcal attitudes to nature.

The number of foxes killed by hunts in the UK before the ban was 4500 on average annually though sadly it is probaly much higher now.
the object of the hunt is to disperse fox not necessarily kill them. This also helps other Wildlife. In the natural order the fox is not the chief predator; we have allowed it to become so so are simply reintroducing a natural ebemy back. If you'd prefer we could put big cats like leopard and wolves back; but I don't think the british public will be enamoured with the roting carcasses of their kids and pet dogs being found up trees (leopard kill).
So there is no debate that fox have to be controlled. Even Labour staunchies admit that. Trouble is their suggestions have been shooting lamping and snares and poison. These are indiscriminate and lead to greate suffering.

whern you talk of killing wildlife, and talk about hunting hounds killing 4500 mostly unfit old mangey male foxes who are the ones who cause domestic stock a probelm, it may be worth weighing up against the millions of intelligent highly social animals killed in our cities each year in the most disgusting way; poison. It takes up to three days for that to work its magic and results in agonising painful death through burst stomach, and works its way up the food chain to owls cats and others; can also kill hedgehogs (remember them?) and other non target animals. The animal that is the target of course is the rat; shame your sympathy for animals doesn't extend to them; but we can't have vermin in the towns can we. In the countryside the preferred method of control is to use terriers. Bio control
for a pigeon a hawk
a mouse a cat
a rat a terirrier
a rabbit a ferret
and a fox the hounds.

keep your poison and do it the traditional way.


Mods...its amazing you slate me about my cap problem yet allow insults...not just to me but my girlfriend and friends.
 
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The tripe part, Dr Dave, comes from you TELLING me (I know you love caps) that cigarette smoke doesn't aggravate the asthma I have; according to you it's entirely psychosomatic since cigarette smoke doesn't case asthma attacks and yet you ask for 'evidence'. I don't need any more evidence than struggling to breathe and having an attack, thank you very much - that's good enough for me.

As for your "continue to suffer" statement, words fail me.

I can't believe I bothered to respond, I shan't in future so address nothing further towards me.


So you haven't got any scientific evidence then.
okay you may decline with honour from the debate.
Your reaction is indeed psychosematic and anecdotal as there is no scientific evidence to support your claim.
 
Is this thread going anywhere?

When someone is trying to leave the room it's polite to let them do so and stop hurling abuse and asking questions.
As there has been no counter evidence put forward I wish to leave.
The sensible thing to do is lock the thread unless anyone has anything constructive to say re countering the arguments put forward.
Insult is no substitute for reason.
 
You shouldn't tell someone what they feel when it is that person that is feeling something, not you.

Again, if you want to engage in the childish antics of saying you're leaving, then continuing to post, I have no sympathy for what follows from other members.

Also, I believe it was you who posted a picture or referenced your girlfriend. If you bring your supposed gf into the topic, you only have yourself to blame.
 
When someone is trying to leave the room it's polite to let them do so and stop hurling abuse and asking questions.
As there has been no counter evidence put forward I wish to leave.
The sensible thing to do is lock the thread unless anyone has anything constructive to say re countering the arguments put forward.
Insult is no substitute for reason.

What room?
 
Dave - as mentioned earlier citing links provided by www.petakillsanimals.com and www.furcommission.com and other such websites does nothing for your argument (which is deeply flawed on so many levels).

Why?
As I pointed out the furcouncil campaign is the work of conservationist Bill Lisham; the furcommission evidence is damning because the cases it gives are unchalleneged by those it cites (and believe me IFAW and the likes SolIcitors will have crawled all over it) and the same for the PETA kills animals site.
Challenge one of the pieces of evidence. You cannot because unlike the arguments from the likes of PETA, who constantly are required by law to withdraw spoecific accustaions because they are erroneous, the incidents quoted by these sites are correct and true.

the arguments here and other evidence I have given if they are deeply flawed on many levels desreve reasoned challenge. Not insult.

So did or did not PETA workers do this
pkadead19.jpg

pkadead20.jpg


It is a simple question and your response above seems to suggest they did not as that evidence is insubmissable to the debate because the site is biased. But sometimes the evidence is correct.
unlike the incidents of alleged skinning alive videos none of which has been proven to stand up to scrutiny. which begs the question if they were not fur farms after all what were they.

the workers were taken to court and found guilty by the way.
 
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