Hayley Turner

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Is anyone else getting a bit fed up with the constant media focus on Hayley Turner? Today she is on the RP front page. She seems to get interviewed everytime she has a winner. C4 did a "handbag" shopping piece with her and Alice P.

OK, she just won the Haynes, Hanson & Clark, which the pundits never tire of telling us was won in the past by Shergar et al. But she was riding a 20/1 outsider - so what.

Up to this season her strike rate averaged 7%. She has crept up to 11%. But so what? Ok she is a woman, but she is hardly the next Julie Crone waiting to happen is she? To me she rides like a typical British Racing School pupil - technically great, but no strength in a finish, and struggles to find a plan b when the tactics of a race don't meet with the gospel according to the "hugely successful, not!" R Perham!

I wish they would spend more time focusing on genuinely talented young riders who are going to rise to the top one day given a bit more media exposure.
 
But she was riding a 20/1 outsider - so what.
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Whats that got to do with anything?

It was a nice ride. I have no problem with the attention. Its a nice story
 
She's been riding very well of late and I think women need more media spotlight given how male driven and backward our sport is. She's got a lot stronger in the saddle too.
 
Agree. Nina Carberry has also rightly received some extra attention too in recent times. Didnt see any complaints about that...
 
numbersix said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up with the constant media focus on Hayley Turner? Today she is on the RP front page. She seems to get interviewed everytime she has a winner. C4 did a "handbag" shopping piece with her and Alice P.

OK, she just won the Haynes, Hanson & Clark, which the pundits never tire of telling us was won in the past by Shergar et al. But she was riding a 20/1 outsider - so what.

Up to this season her strike rate averaged 7%. She has crept up to 11%. But so what? Ok she is a woman, but she is hardly the next Julie Crone waiting to happen is she? To me she rides like a typical British Racing School pupil - technically great, but no strength in a finish, and struggles to find a plan b when the tactics of a race don't meet with the gospel according to the "hugely successful, not!" R Perham!

I wish they would spend more time focusing on genuinely talented young riders who are going to rise to the top one day given a bit more media exposure.
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I rate her highly for what its worth, the best jockey that Bell uses anyway.
 
Hayley Turner would not hold a candle to Nina Carberry - if Nina went pro I think most reasoned race watchers would expect her to take high rank among the pros. My whole point is that imo Hayley Turner will be an average jockey in 10 years time, as I see no example of her consistently getting bad horses to win, and she often fluffs her lines when given the opportunity to ride well backed animals.

Women trainers are very common these days, and the likes of Jessica H, Hen Knight, Venetia et al successfully mix it with the top males.

I think it is a bit foolish to hone in on a rider just because she is a female - it should be something they attract through merit not "just cos she is the best of an average lot".

Also, Kirsty Milzareck is on a similar strike rate, as is Sophie Doyle, and Milzareck had a similar strike late last year when Turner was languishing on 7%.

I have nothing against female's in the profession, but I think the recent media focus on Turner is disproportionate given her achievements.
 
numbersix said:
Hayley Turner would not hold a candle to Nina Carberry - if Nina went pro I think most reasoned race watchers would expect her to take high rank among the pros. My whole point is that imo Hayley Turner will be an average jockey in 10 years time, as I see no example of her consistently getting bad horses to win, and she often fluffs her lines when given the opportunity to ride well backed animals.

Women trainers are very common these days, and the likes of Jessica H, Hen Knight, Venetia et al successfully mix it with the top males.

I think it is a bit foolish to hone in on a rider just because she is a female - it should be something they attract through merit not "just cos she is the best of an average lot".

Also, Kirsty Milzareck is on a similar strike rate, as is Sophie Doyle, and Milzareck had a similar strike late last year when Turner was languishing on 7%.

I have nothing against female's in the profession, but I think the recent media focus on Turner is disproportionate given her achievements.
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Theres a difference though number 6, what weight does Nina do, 9st 10lb maybe ??? Hayley is a flat jockey, if she were a stone heavier riding over jumps she would of course be much stronger than she is, the fact is all NH jocks are a bit stronger than flat, as of their build, look at Jim Crowley, he has done wonders to shed the weight and is one of the strongest on the flat, difference being you can't compare jump jocks to flat, its like comparing Usain Bolt to Michael Johnson.
 
Cheeks I was merely commenting on the reference made to Nina - my comparison is between Nina and her fellow male pros over the sticks, and I think she stacks up pretty well. Conversely I do not think Hayley Turner will progress much beyond the level she has achieved, and as pointed out Kirsty Milzcarek has arguably achieved a greater level of consistency than Turner over the past two seasons.

I obviously agree with your comments about strength vis bigger weights of jump jockeys.
 
LOL

Can i keep that insult please?


As it happens, I already but it went WHOOSH and you missed the point entirely..and i got bored
 
Miles off beam with this Numbersix, although the press have gone OTT on the lady jockey front to be fair. Hayley is genuinely top class and is stronger than many of the top twenty men in a finish. On another note, Clivex did make a valid point about Hayley's ride in the HHC ~ you seem to think the fact that the horse was 20/1 somehow devalues the ride, but I don't understand the point. The colt was a newcomer and quite green, but Hayley managed to get a decent tune out of him. I wouldn't take it for granted that he doesn't have a big future simply based on his SP.

On the subject of strike rates, do you think they are a guide to a jockey's ability because I certainly don't ~ they are mainly a blunt indicator of the number of unfancied rides a jockey gets. The ROI on a jockey's mounts is a slightly better indicator (although not great) and Hayley beats eight of the top ten jockeys on that score.
 
rorydelargy said:
Miles off beam with this Numbersix, although the press have gone OTT on the lady jockey front to be fair. Hayley is genuinely top class and is stronger than many of the top twenty men in a finish. On another note, Clivex did make a valid point about Hayley's ride in the HHC ~ you seem to think the fact that the horse was 20/1 somehow devalues the ride, but I don't understand the point. The colt was a newcomer and quite green, but Hayley managed to get a decent tune out of him. I wouldn't take it for granted that he doesn't have a big future simply based on his SP.

On the subject of strike rates, do you think they are a guide to a jockey's ability because I certainly don't ~ they are mainly a blunt indicator of the number of unfancied rides a jockey gets. The ROI on a jockey's mounts is a slightly better indicator (although not great) and Hayley beats eight of the top ten jockeys on that score.
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That wasn't my point at all Rory - I was merely pointing out (not too well it would appear) that she won on a 20/1 shot fine - but in my experience she has been found wanting in the past when put up on fancied animals, either getting the fractions wrong or finding trouble in running.

If by ROI you meen £1 level stake profit, I kind of disagree. Surely the higher up the table a jockey is, the lower the average SP of his mounts (because he is usually riding more fancied horses) so it is more likely that a worse £1 level stake profit will show up compared to a rider who recently steered home winners priced at 7s, 8s, 10s x 2, and 20s. Also, if you take the ROI measure, then Silvestre De Sousa is the best jockey riding today, Kirsty Milzcarek is significantly better than Turner (something I happen to agree with!), as are Cathy Gannon and Sophie Doyle.

Is Dane O'Neill at +£13.25 the best of the top decile? Not for me - I could never part with cash on a plotted up horse or seriously short priced horse he was riding. This is extremely subjective I admit, and total pocket talk, but he just always seems to come unstuck when riding the more fancied ones.

I must admit Turner seems to cause deep polarity among punters - there is a guy on Betfair called Happy Hibby who will argue incessantly that she is a genuinely world class pilot. For me she is an average journey(wo)man pilot who I do not expect to ever take high rank among the flat jockey lists.
 
Numbersix ~ I never claimed that ROI was a reliable indicator of who the best jockeys are, merely that it was a slightly better indicator of merit than strike rate. Bald statistics never tell the story, as you know.

BTW, I think you are giving insight into why you are losing money with your betting approach with the following phrase:

"I could never part with cash on a plotted up horse or seriously short priced horse he was riding"

This gives the impression that you are essentially allowing others to choose which horses you back, either because they are a short price or have contracted in the betting. I can assure that assuming horses should run well because of these factors and following in with your cash is a certain route to penury. If you want to take control of your punting, you've got to learn to take your own counsel.
 
All I am doing is talking from my personal experience Rory. BTW I did not say you said ROI was a reliable indicator. However you did say it was better than SR which I disagree with. I guess if you wanted to gauge if a jockey was in form or not, looking at his rides over say 8-6 weeks, you wouldn't check his £1 ROI would you? Surely SR would be more meaningful, as a jockey could get lucky on a 33/1 shot, which totally skews the figures.

I admit, I will allow the market to often influence my decision (pity I didn't in the case of Effort yesterday!!!!!:mad:). Not always, but I will usually take on board alarming drifts or the opposite and factor this in. Yes, I know, this does mean I am reliant on other people's opinions but the market is usually the only guide people like me without "inside info" have to gaugue the level of stable confidence behind a horse.

The comment iro Dane O'Neill was that I have from bitter personal experience found him to be unreliable aboard fancied mounts.

It would be an oversimplification for me to say I only blindly follow the market, but I think I have made it pretty clear that in the past month all of the previous 9 months of losing has got to me, and I need a break. When my head is clear I usually use my eyes (RUK/ATR), following by the RP website, followed by consultation with the market, followed by form/ability of connections. Not always in that order, and obviously when "chasing" a lot of the detailed sstudy goes out the window.

Hopefully my honesty on here is appreciated, even if I am little more than a mug. That said, I know from past periods of sustained (6 months in 2005) success that I should be able to get the boat back on an even keel at some stage with a bit of discipline and patience - easier said than done of course!
 
The percentage chance of all of her rides implied by their SPs over the last 14 days suggest that she should have won 6.4 of her 59 rides (not taking overround into it).

She won 10.
 
She is first class and that is what is being picked up - not that she is a woman jockey but that she is a damn good jockey . I think she rides really intelligently, she is strong enough in a finish, she keeps horses really well balanced and horses run for her. Her ride on Furnace at Chester is a case in point.

She certainly doesn't misuse the whip like Krone commonly did.
 
Ardross said:
She is first class and that is what is being picked up - not that she is a woman jockey but that she is a damn good jockey . I think she rides really intelligently, she is strong enough in a finish, she keeps horses really well balanced and horses run for her. Her ride on Furnace at Chester is a case in point.

She certainly doesn't misuse the whip like Krone commonly did.
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Agreed Ardross ~ Julie Krone's great strength was her....ahem....great strength; she tried to be more masculine than the boys (she was involved in a number of physical fights for example) and that worked for her. She would have struggled in Britain at the time she was prospering in the States. Hayley doesn't have to outmuscle the men to outshine them but she is much more effective in a driving finish than other successful female pioneers like Emma O'Gorman and Lisa Jones. Previously, girls had to rely on a reputation for having good hands to get any degree of success, the argument being that they couldn't possibly be as strong in a finish. Hayley has burst that bubble in no uncertain terms ~ compare her to Steve Drowne, Michael & Richard Hills and even Jamie Spencer. She is undoubtedly more effective in a finish that all of those; stronger than the first three and neater and more controlled than the last named.
 
I'm with Rory in that you are way off beam here, #6. Hayley Turner is a very good jockey, her sex is immaterial since she is better than a lot of the males riding anyway.

I cannot possibly agree with you that she is not geniunely talented nor that she rides like a BRS pupil - she rides in a style very similar to Fallon for God's sake, both aesthetically and tactically.

I think she will go to the top and have backed her to be champion at some stage.
 
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