Hayley Turner

[Flame]

Yes, but that is obviously owner intervention? He didn't do a great deal wrong for Cumani in last season's Ebor. As for Bell, he has to go with the owners wishes, however he still sends Spencer to Beverley for the one ride. Why not send Hayley if she is No 1?

One race doesn't accuount for numerous errors and misjudgements.

Dane O'Neill is very much the number one there and rides the best horses, Ryan Moore has been riding some of the better ones in bigger races, but at the end of it all, if offered Moore you wouldn't turn him down.

 

[Flame]

I am not so blind as to say Spencer has never given a horse a bad ride, but imo he gets it wrong less than most. You need to also bear in mind that his four main patrons, Bell, Fanshawe, Meehan and Cumani - who currently stand at 19th, 28th, 20th and 28th in the trainers lists. Yet Spencer still manages to hold his own in the top 5 jockleys riding. I wonder how he would perform if he had the resources of a Stoute or Hannon at his disposal?

I think it should be noted that if he is so good as you seem to think, why doesn't he ride for them. His partnership with Jaber Abdullah lasted the shortest of any, although he won on Nahoodh in the Lowther he was awfully shocking at times, I know Jaber goes through jockeys at a rate of knots, but Spencer, didn't last as long as Drowne, Holland or Hughes.

Stoute is not adverse for using outside jockeys and I think the fact one of the greatest trainers in racing doesn't use him, displays that maybe the majority don't particularly rate him.

 

[numbersix]

So please research your facts before you make an opinion.

.

There's no need to be sharp. I was well aware of the withdrawal as I initially thought it strange Spencer would trek north for the one ride, when he could have a day off and let Hayley ride. On seeing the withdrawal it became apparent. However, as No.1 to Bell he went. I wouldn't expect two riders to go for a ride a piece from the same yard - of course not.

I think we need to give up on this. You have a very subjective opinion of Spencer, which you will not allow to be changed, honing in on what are deemed bad ones instead of looking at the countless good ones he has steered home over the years.

You may like also to reconsider a point I made earlier - all of his chief suppliers of rides are languishing in the low teens and 20s in the trainers list. Do you think some of the blame he gets is from people (owners and trainers included) who are feeling frustrated by their comparative underachievement, and are looking for a high profile scapegoat. As I pointed out to the other poster re: Silver Pivotal, if someone has made up their mind that a jockey has given a mount a bad ride, all the reason in the world doesn't appear to make a blind bit of difference.

 

[Flame]

There's no need to be sharp. I was well aware of the withdrawal as I initially thought it strange Spencer would trek north for the one ride, when he could have a day off and let Hayley ride. On seeing the withdrawal it became apparent. However, as No.1 to Bell he went. I wouldn't expect two riders to go for a ride a piece from the same yard - of course not.

I think we need to give up on this. You have a very subjective opinion of Spencer, which you will not allow to be changed, honing in on what are deemed bad ones instead of looking at the countless good ones he has steered home over the years.

You may like also to reconsider a point I made earlier - all of his chief suppliers of rides are languishing in the low teens and 20s in the trainers list. Do you think some of the blame he gets is from people (owners and trainers included) who are feeling frustrated by their comparative underachievement, and are looking for a high profile scapegoat. As I pointed out to the other poster re: Silver Pivotal, if someone has made up their mind that a jockey has given a mount a bad ride, all the reason in the world doesn't appear to make a blind bit of difference.

I think you are partly right on that, but think you won't accept the fact he screws up alot.

I don't think the big yards he rides for have been that bad to be honest. Michael Bell has had a great season as has Brian Meehan. Both yards have been having winners, the difference to where you sit in a trainers table depends on how much prize money you earn.

I don't recall many good rides and personally I don't some of the ones you would quote anyone else couldn't have won on.

A thread about Hayley Turner has turned into a thread about Spencer which is wrong.

You keep calling him Bell's number one, but he doesn't have a stable jockey, he uses two freelanced jockeys, but Hayley has been riding more this season and some of the more fancied ones.

He was always going to Beverley to ride Hoh Mike, and no trainer, if they pulled one out and had one other running would make a jockey of 5 rides elsewhere connected to the yard give them up to ride a horse that wasn't even remotely fancied.

 

[davidjohnson]

The yards reaction after his ride on La Adelita last week, also suggests he probably won't be on that in the near distant future.

Just because the yard had their bollox on La Adelita doesn't mean Spencer gave it a bad ride. He did everything and more to win the race and was unfortuante to come up against another horse that was fully a stone ahead of it's mark.

 

[Flame]

Just because the yard had their bollox on La Adelita doesn't mean Spencer gave it a bad ride. He did everything and more to win the race and was unfortuante to come up against another horse that was fully a stone ahead of it's mark.

A horse that just gallops and won making all the time before, he dropped in and gave the winner a 4L first run, when his orders were to go handy and kick 3f out.

So you may not think it was a bad ride, but all the yard disagree and the fact was he thought he could win as he pleased rather than following the instructions he was given. That to me is a bad ride.

 

[mrussell]

You'd think he'd have learnt after ... Hawk Wing.
Slow learner?

 

[numbersix]

I think it should be noted that if he is so good as you seem to think, why doesn't he ride for them. His partnership with Jaber Abdullah lasted the shortest of any, although he won on Nahoodh in the Lowther he was awfully shocking at times, I know Jaber goes through jockeys at a rate of knots, but Spencer, didn't last as long as Drowne, Holland or Hughes.

You have answered your own question there. Jaber Abdullah as far as I am aware does not retain jockeys. Hughes had the ride on Youmzain for instance but was not retained, with, as I am sure you more than anyone knows, Eddie Creighton and Tadgh O'Shea taking the bulk of the rides this term as Channon's (Jaber's main trainer) stable jockeys. In previous seasons the likes of Durcan and Culhane (former stable jocks of Channon's) have enjoyed the bulk of Abdullah's rides, so this indicates that principally Abdullah uses the stable jockey of the trainer, unless he feels a different style maybe required.

In Spencer's brief association with the owner, he showed a 21% SR, a pound level stake profit of 71.50 from only 14 rides. Hardly a disaster. As you said he won a Lowther for him. He also got a vital Group victory out of Nijoom Dubai at Royal Ascot - the filly has never won another race., even with the mighty Ryan Moore riding in the Sandringham. Which makes the decision to replace him on those horses in particular all the more questionable.

Stoute is not adverse for using outside jockeys and I think the fact one of the greatest trainers in racing doesn't use him, displays that maybe the majority don't particularly rate him.

As you full well know Stoute had Fallon retained when Spencer was still at Ballydoyle and Ryan Moore was already waiting the wings as the yards claimer. It is oversimplistic to say Stoute won't use him per se. You know full well he has ridden for the yard in the past. The problem is that with Spencer's own loyalty to other yards, Stoute cannot rely on him to take the outside rides, and like any trainer likes consistency in his riding arrangements. Currently Robert Winston, Richard Hills (Hamdan connection) Jamie Hamblett (claimer) and Louis Beuzelin (claimer) get the bulk of the outside rides. No surprise in any of those then.

Spencer has picked up 3 outside rides this season from Stoute, a similar figure to the likes of Sanders, Callan, Kinane and Hughes. So I think you are going up a blind alley with this, especially when we recall that last term during Ryan Moore's absence Spencer started to pick up a lot of spares from Stoute yielding a 33% SR from 18 rides.

 

[numbersix]

A horse that just gallops and won making all the time before, he dropped in and gave the winner a 4L first run, when his orders were to go handy and kick 3f out.

So you may not think it was a bad ride, but all the yard disagree and the fact was he thought he could win as he pleased rather than following the instructions he was given. That to me is a bad ride.

Like the other poster who gave examples, this is a bizarre example of a supposedly bad ride. If connections are disappionted then I fail to see why when having just re-watched the race on ATR, Spencer appeared to do precisely what you claim the instructions were. OK, the front two went off like scalded cats, so if Spencer had sat on their girths and ran out of fuel, just like they did, then he would have been slagged for setting a suicidal pace up for closers. So what did he do? Sat "handy" in the main pack, on the tail of the eventual winner. He got after his mount fully three furlongs out, as per apparent instructions, but Calohonda proved too tough a nut to crack, the 2lbs making all the difference, with the winner well in as Dave J points out. I think Spencer gave the filly one of the most aggressive rides I have seen from hom all season, so to criticise him is beyond me.

It is becoming evident that when he sits up on a horse, and looks around, and gets beat he is a showboating so and so. When he tries to overcome traffic problems in big fields as best he can he is a so and so. When he throws the kitchen sink at a horse he is a so and so. Yet he has won 86 races this season, none of which are worthy of mention. He was won this total even though by his own admission he no longer wants to "chase" winners the length and breadth of the land. He has won this total with his four main patrons languishing in the lower teens and 20s of the trainers table.

 

[Hamm]

Whatever about other types of races, but Spencer's ability in Heritage Handicaps is second to none, a fact which is probably helped by the usual strong pace in these races. Zidane in last year's Steward's Cup springs to mind.

 

[numbersix]

Whatever about other types of races, but Spencer's ability in Heritage Handicaps is second to none, a fact which is probably helped by the usual strong pace in these races. Zidane in last year's Steward's Cup springs to mind.

Quite, and probably also worth mentioning that only two jockeys, out of 6 who have tried have won on him - Spencer and Urbina, with Urbina winning just the once and Spencer 5 (including his only pattern race victory thus far).

Rather than slagging him for the ride at Newcastle it would be better to applaud him for getting so much success from a very tricky customer. Winston, Dettori, Murtagh and Dwyer all failed.

 

[Desert Orchid]

I allowed myself to talk myself into punting Oat Cuisine in the 1.55 at Ascot today despite the fact Ms Turner was aboard (she'd been successful on the filly before). I won't make that mistake again. She was hopeless.

 

[Guest_]

I allowed myself to talk myself into punting Oat Cuisine in the 1.55 at Ascot today despite the fact Ms Turner was aboard (she'd been successful on the filly before). I won't make that mistake again. She was hopeless.

Everyone has a poor ride. Dettori did his best on Orizaba to copy his awful ride on Librettist in the QEII a couple of years ago.

 

[Gamla Stan]

Chief Editor just hosed up without Mr Spencer on at Haydock after his woeful effort last time out.

 

[Flame]

It won nicely, agree there. Given Wallace always maintained he needed soft ground, you could say good decission from Micky J to run him on faster ground and give him a chance. No surprise if he ended up a group 1 sprinter on that. The sprinting division is poor and he routed them from the wrong side of the draw in a fierce handicap giving weight away all round.

 

[Gamla Stan]

Owner made a good choice, change of trainer and subsequently a change of jockey too. Always liked the horse and hopefully he can go on to better things.

 

[Flame]

Owner made a good choice, change of trainer and subsequently a change of jockey too. Always liked the horse and hopefully he can go on to better things.

Only left Mark because he was packing up training, they asked Mark if he should go to Meehan or Jarvis, and he said keep him in Newmarket.

 

[Gamla Stan]

Ah thanks for clearing that up.

Furnace Great ride from Hayley, isn't she good in Heritage Handicaps?!

 

[Flame]

Ah thanks for clearing that up.

Furnace Great ride from Hayley, isn't she good in Heritage Handicaps?!

Anything Jamie does, Hayley does better

Great rider, could call her the winner 3f out. No better jockey in a finish than Hayley.

 

[Gamla Stan]

Jamie couldn't win in a 5 runner race on Furnace, Hayley wins on it in a 29 runner affair!

 

[Desert Orchid]

Having closely watched the replay of the big h'cap, I have to say I think Furnace won in spite of HT, a remark I accept will go down like a lead balloon, but that's my opinion. I was on Relative Order but Furnace's attitude really impressed me.

 

[numbersix]

Chief Editor just hosed up without Mr Spencer on at Haydock after his woeful effort last time out.

Gamla I think you've select the wrong website mate - try this one instead:

www.betfair.com/forum

BTW presumably Chief Editor won today because Philip Robinson was riding not Jamie Spencer? Presumably Chief Editor won at Wolves on 4th November last year, and at Nottingham on 23rd April this year for completely different reasons other than who was riding on those occasions? Not to mention the ground factor that Chris has already referred to, but lets not allow facts that may not support your argument to get in the way now shall we?

 

[numbersix]

Jamie couldn't win in a 5 runner race on Furnace, Hayley wins on it in a 29 runner affair!

You really are becoming childish.

Shall we randomly choose horses both have ridden and draw a conclusion as to who is the best - lets totally ignore Spencer's two Jockey titles shall we?

The Betchworth Kid:

Spencer 2 rides, 1 win 1 2nd
Turner, 6 rides, 1 win, 1 3rd, 4 unpl.

Topazes:

Spencer 5 wins from 9 rides
Turner 2 rides both unplaced.

So now, using your very own your methodology, that makes Turner rubbish and Spencer brilliant.

 

[numbersix]

Having closely watched the replay of the big h'cap, I have to say I think Furnace won in spite of HT, a remark I accept will go down like a lead balloon, but that's my opinion. I was on Relative Order but Furnace's attitude really impressed me.

The voice of reason!

Furnace was up only 3lb for his Chester win when he beat 5 of today's field, was drawn in the favoured high numbers, and had clearly been dropped to a winnable mark following his reappearance run at Lingfield (Spencer rode) and fairly moderate performance at Great Leighs (Turner rode!).

To suggest Turner's presence in the saddle today was the difference between winning and losing is mind boggling.

I have seen these debates time and again, usually on Betfair I might add, when as soon as Jockey a) loses certain people say that is proof he/she is rubbish, and then when jockey b) wins that proves he/she is the second coming. Given the number of defeats come around considerably more often than winners for most if not all riders, it takes very little time for a series of defeats to arm the detractors, and they then wait for a win, usually on the TV, for their favoured jockey in order to hold that up as proof that rider is a genius.

Once Turner is in front of Spencer in the jockeys title, once she has 2 or more titles to her name, once she attracts offers from the big yards and owners, then come back here and tell me she is better than Spencer and I will gladly accept that I was wrong.

Until then this debate has no future.

 

[Flame]

The voice of reason!

Furnace was up only 3lb for his Chester win when he beat 5 of today's field, was drawn in the favoured high numbers, and had clearly been dropped to a winnable mark following his reappearance run at Lingfield (Spencer rode) and fairly moderate performance at Great Leighs (Turner rode!).

To suggest Turner's presence in the saddle today was the difference between winning and losing is mind boggling.

I have seen these debates time and again, usually on Betfair I might add, when as soon as Jockey a) loses certain people say that is proof he/she is rubbish, and then when jockey b) wins that proves he/she is the second coming. Given the number of defeats come around considerably more often than winners for most if not all riders, it takes very little time for a series of defeats to arm the detractors, and they then wait for a win, usually on the TV, for their favoured jockey in order to hold that up as proof that rider is a genius.

Once Turner is in front of Spencer in the jockeys title, once she has 2 or more titles to her name, once she attracts offers from the big yards and owners, then come back here and tell me she is better than Spencer and I will gladly accept that I was wrong.

Until then this debate has no future.

She is hot though