Hayley Turner

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I cannot be having her as strong as Spencer in a finish. Fallon himself recently said that Spencer is "as strong as a bull" in a finish. Coming from Fallon that must be respected.

As for Turner resembling Fallon in any way shape or form, I must have missed that one. Fallon's style to my eyes is unique among modern jockeys, and Hayley Turner certainly is not worth of comparison.

Good luck with your bet, but I think you should have asked them to do it in a double with the fires of hell ceasing to burn. At least one half might have had a chance of coming up!
 
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Oh feck me pink. Now you've mentioned Spencer being so strong in a finish you've lost me already...

Turner's style very much resembles that of Fallon. Have you watched her ride recently? She does it very well, too.
 
Well at least she gets involved with the finish, Spencer is usually too busy fecking about running into the back of other horses due to his absurd style of race-riding. Spencer looks strong because he gives his horses too much to do. Spencer is in the top 5 worst jockeys riding regularly for me, his ride on Summers Target was atrocious.

She is similar to Fallon in that she seems to be able to galvinise her mounts and get the most of them in the final stages of the race. Have a look at her ride on Mango Lady at Newmarket on Saturday, very Fallonesque, if Spencer was on it probably would have got beat.
 
Sorry, but I just cannot see any similarity between Turner and Fallon. The nearest we have to Fallon, although some way short in terms of telent imo is Chris Caitlin, and Declan McDonagh across the water.

Spencer continually comes in for slaggings on the forums, but in my eyes he would be the best for some time however he clearly has intermittent crises of confidence which is probably why the Ballydoyle retainer was severed after a year. However Ballydoyle are no fools, and the fact they hired him in the first place speaks volumes. Even in his "bad" season there 33% of his horses won - maybe a case of the public perception not marrying up with the facts.

I think his strength was shown to great advantage on Nasri in the nursery at Newbury on Saturday. Horse looked beat 2 out but he kept rousting his mount to get up near the line.

For me he is the best settler of a horse I have seen since Piggott, and he is usually tactically brilliant. He rides Kempton's AW track like nobody I have seen, and is always in the best position at the crucial stages of races.

Given his reputation as a brilliant hold up jockey, he is naturally in demand to ride horses needing dropping out and switching off. However horses that need to be ridden this way will often find trouble in running - it goes with the territory. I have seen Spencer set fractions brilliantly off the front end, but he is rarely given the opportunity to show his all round ability because of the reasons given before.

Like all pilots he makes mistakes, however I have made a lot more money backing his mounts than backing against them down the years.

As you have probably gathered, I am a fan.
 
Absolutely, GS.

As for "he clearly has intermittent crises of confidence" - patent nonsense. "Attacks of arrogance" would be far closer to the mark.
 
He is tactically inept. I could name so many rides of his which would have won had he not rode such a poor race.

Name them. And I bet I can name considerably more where is ability in the saddle has brought victory to horses who probably didn't deserve it.

Whatever you attribute his "mental" issues to SL, you say arrogance I more generously put it down to confidence, do you honestly believe the likes of Magnier would have him on their horses if they thought he was not one of the most talented jockeys riding today?

I also put it to you that if Hayley Turner is the living image of Kieran Fallon do you not think Magnier would have wasted little time in snapping her up when Fallon was banned? He is not, after all, averse to hiring youthful potential as was the case when he brought Spencer to Ballydoyle in the first place. With the greatest of respect I suspect Ballydoyle's team to be better judges of what makes a good jockey than anyone on the forums.
 
Magnier wasn't putting up Fallon when he was Turner's age though, was he? He's hardly a great example to bring up since Spencer lost his retainer there. He is a genuinely talented jockey but most of us are punters who have been stung by his one dimensional style. It's wrong to suggest he's no good, but for a champion jockey, his frailties are all too obvious. He's also not a worse jockey than Hayley Turner but she looks destined to improve beyond him within a few years given the opportunities.
 
The percentage chance of all of her rides implied by their SPs over the last 14 days suggest that she should have won 6.4 of her 59 rides (not taking overround into it).

She won 10.

For the sake of comparison, over the last 14 days:

Jamie Spencer: expectation was ~8, actual wins were 7
Ryan Moore: expectation was ~17, actual wins were 15
 
Magnier wasn't putting up Fallon when he was Turner's age though, was he? He's hardly a great example to bring up since Spencer lost his retainer there. He is a genuinely talented jockey but most of us are punters who have been stung by his one dimensional style. It's wrong to suggest he's no good, but for a champion jockey, his frailties are all too obvious. He's also not a worse jockey than Hayley Turner but she looks destined to improve beyond him within a few years given the opportunities.

Sorry Rory, but I am afraid I cannot see past Turner being about as good as she is now for the rest of her career. I am happy to be proven wrong.

My point about Spencer getting the job at Ballydoyle is that when they see talent they hire it and dont let age and experience get in the way. As I alluded to before, Spencer's strike rate there was 33% so he cannot have been doing a lot wrong. I think a few high profile blunders were punished, but day in day out he was as good as any pilot they have had.

Also, personally, I think he is anything but a one trick pony. As I said earlier, his success at persuading trainers to hire him for hold up rides means he does not get the credit he deserves as a good judge of pace. I think if he was tied to one big yard for longer we would see him using his head clock on the front end more often.
 
My point about Spencer getting the job at Ballydoyle is that when they see talent they hire it and dont let age and experience get in the way.

Christy Roche (3 years?), Mick Kinane (5 years), Jamie Spencer (1 year), Kieren Fallon (3 years), Johnny Murtagh (1 year and counting).

Spencer is the exception, not the rule.
 
It's all about opinions N6, although I've never heard another person describe JS as a good judge of pace. All the best, anyway.
 
I enjoyed this thread, until Frank "Fcuked Up Again" Spencer was brought into it.

I think N6 has been spending too much time listening to the Morning Line, with their constant dribble about how amazing Spencer is.

Even if I had a keen going, plant on the line horse, I would have George Baker, weight permitting well ahead of Frank the plank.

Whatever is upstairs on Spencer, it sure as hell aint a clock. He is far too one dimensional. Yet on the odd occasion he puts one in a race it normally wins.

Anyone see Gallagher first time out at Newbury, now I backed the winner, but I struggle to see how he could finish that far behind Orizaba, yet since its never been out the first 2 and Spencer aint been near it.

Hayley Turner is as good as any, she is strong, gets horses balanced and never has a horse far off the pace. I watched her yesterday in a claimer at Redcar on a horse of Bell's called Maryqueenofscots. The horse was going nowhere from halfway but she kept driving it out to grab about a 4L 5th. Most jockeys would have given up and come about tenth. I think Hayley Turner is probably the best jockey riding at present behind JM and RM but the key thing is she doesn't get the chances, if she rode the horses Spencer did she would eclipse his winners. Spencer is running out of horses to ride in the Bell and Callaghan yard, with Turner replacing him. Surely so many owners can't be wrong.
 
She is similar to Fallon in that she seems to be able to galvinise her mounts and get the most of them in the final stages of the race. Have a look at her ride on Mango Lady at Newmarket on Saturday, very Fallonesque, if Spencer was on it probably would have got beat.

Gamla Stan,

Are you sure you are referring to this race? Any jockey in the land would have won on Mango Lady - Turner took a pull to ensure she didn't win too far it was that easy. Only 6 runners as well ensured no traffic problems etc.

I'm sure there are many examples of Turner's jockeyship (i'm a fan) but this was definitely not one of them
 
One thing Hayler Turner is doing is great PR for the sport. She is articulate and she is clearly very talented. I am currently doing the website for Kylie Manser and Kylie really respects what Hayley has done for the sport as she is clearly as good as, and better than many of the male jocks. She has given some of the female jocks a real boost. She apparently has no ego and has her feet firmly on the ground. She is also with an excellent trainer which always helps.

I think it is a great accolade to her that she is being compared to some of our best male jockeys as, although it is a personal opinion, it is clear she is being recognised for being pretty damn good whatever her gender. Of course she has bad days and crap rides but she is holding her own and long may that continue.
 
Name them.

I suspect Ballydoyle's team to be better judges of what makes a good jockey than anyone on the forums.

Indeed, they fired him. Cheveley Park have started using him less, they've already jocked him off Spacious for Winston.

Name bad Spencer rides? The forum probably has limited webspace but some classics for you...

Silver Pivotal in the Winter Derby at Lingfield this year, truly appalling ride. He gave the filly far too much to do. I certainly am talking out of my pocket here but the horse should have won, any race reader will tell you that.

Zidane in the Chipchase at Newcastle in June. More exaggerated waiting tactics, the horse finished fast and late and got into all kinds of traffic problems due to his route taking and absurd tactics.

More recently, Summers Target last week at Newmarket. The odds on favourite in the race... the draw was favouring high numbers throughout the card as the ground was quicker towards the far rail. Spencer bought his mount away from the other runners (don't say because the horse was unsettled and he wanted to keep the horse away from other runners because that is utter bull) towards the stand side and subsequently got beat.

Chief Editor at Doncaster in the Portland, the horse probably wouldn't have won but it finished midfield when it should have at placed. Same old exaggerated waiting tactics and met loads of trouble in running and ran up the rear of many a horse.

I know plenty of trainers who won't use him and I still enjoy David Barker's offerings: "I wouldn't let him ride my bike" and "More like chumpion jockey rather than champion jockey."
 
Indeed, they fired him.

But he had a 33% strike rate, better than those achieved by Fallon (in all his time there), and even Murtagh this season. As I said some high profile defeats led to his departure, however the point I am making is they saw exceptional talent to hire him in the first place.

Name bad Spencer rides? The forum probably has limited webspace but some classics for you...

Silver Pivotal in the Winter Derby at Lingfield this year, truly appalling ride. He gave the filly far too much to do. I certainly am talking out of my pocket here but the horse should have won, any race reader will tell you that.

Correct, you are pocket talking. Spencer had a mountain to climb riding a confirmed hold up horse from stall 14, anyone who follows racing at Lingfield will tell you that. He was always likely to encounter traffic problems, he did and was forced to make his run on the wide outside. In the end he was beaten by a previous Group winner who won another Group 3 next time out. Presumably Frankie Dettori must be even worse than the "hapless" Spencer as next time out the filly could only finish 5th in a Listed event?

Zidane in the Chipchase at Newcastle in June. More exaggerated waiting tactics, the horse finished fast and late and got into all kinds of traffic problems due to his route taking and absurd tactics.

That'll be the Zidane then who has been beaten everytime he has contested a Group event, and who in the Chipcase ran to his best ever RPR? All his wins (bar a handicap off 89) have come on Gd or Gd Fm ground. It was soft at Newcastle. His best TS figure of 113 came on good ground, compared with the 107 recorded in the Ascot soft ground win. The horse clearly ran beyond anything he had shown before, but bumped into on still on the upgrade. How you can blame the jockey for his defeat is beyond me, especially since the winner interfered with him by drifting right - how was Spencer meant to predict that before it happened?

More recently, Summers Target last week at Newmarket. The odds on favourite in the race... the draw was favouring high numbers throughout the card as the ground was quicker towards the far rail. Spencer bought his mount away from the other runners (don't say because the horse was unsettled and he wanted to keep the horse away from other runners because that is utter bull) towards the stand side and subsequently got beat.

Yes, this race did throw up some controversy, I will grant you that. But there is your opinion, and then there is that of the RP Anaysis which does indeed cite problems with settling the fractious colt as the reason Spencer raced in isolation. But as he also points out, Spencer has already won a race earlier on that stip, so presumably felt there was not as big a disadvantage running on it as others did. In my eyes the animal was beaten fair and square. I backed him at Sandown and he ran a similar sort of race, looking a bit one paced at the business end. He could well be a non stayer and a drop in trip is probably required for him to break his maiden. The winner is entered up in the Racing Post Trophy and the Derby so is hardly undervalued by a yard who's 2 year olds have been in tremendous form of late, consistently throwing up debutant winners. What is for sure is that a furlong out he was in the van with every chance if good enough.

Chief Editor at Doncaster in the Portland, the horse probably wouldn't have won but it finished midfield when it should have at placed. Same old exaggerated waiting tactics and met loads of trouble in running and ran up the rear of many a horse.

I have already stated that trainers employ him for hold up horses because he is widely regarded as one of the best riders at settling and switching off horses. The problem punters have is accepting that the risk in backing hold up horses, especially in ultra-competitive 21 runner sprint handicaps is that there will be a high risk of encountering traffic problems. It is no coincidence that Chief Editors four wins have come in fields of 7 (twice), 8 & 9. The cards may yet fall for him in a large field race, but blaming Spencer is wide of the mark.

It seems from the examples you have given that you have taken a very blinkered view, probably due to having lost money on these horses, and will not accept the reasons for the defeats were perfectly plausible ones. On other threads I have described my torrid time betting, and speculated about the overall ability of the current crop of jockeys. However, if I don't fancy a jockey I simply screen him out of my betting. Losing money on a jockey and then saying he is rubbish, when there is sufficient evidence to cite mitigating circumstances in the examples given strikes me as unfair.
 
Silver Pivotal should have won the Winter Derby, whether I backed it heavily or not is irrelevant. She was given an appalling ride, even the Racing Post report says "he was still at the back of the field threefurlongs out, Jamie Spencer yet to make a move, and there were only two behind her into the straight, where she was forced to come wide." You're hardly comparing like for like by looking at her run with Dettori on at Windsor as that was on turf and she's evidently a better horse on the all-weather. If a sensible jockey had been riding her, she'd have a group win to her name.

Commenting on the form of runners that beats him doesn't strengthen your argument at all. In fact, it weakens it. There aren't mitigating circumstances, he's just inept. You don't see the same controversy with other jockeys like Ryan Moore, Seb Sanders etc. because they generally do get beat fair and square. I don't care for the Betfair forum at all, it's full of clowns but the amount of posts about his rides is just too great for it to be a coincidence.

I only lost money on one of those examples and that was Silver Pivotal. I know plenty of people who could list more. I don't even back horses he rides anymore unless I really fancy the horse and even then, I'd stake less than I would normally do. I don't apply this rule to any other jockey, I do with Spencer because he is often on fancied horses but his ability/tactics don't offer security against the price/chances of the horses he's on.

Incidently, I'm not interested in turning this debate into a personal battle about punting records.
 
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I had a substantial ante-post bet on Silver Pivotal for the Winter Derby - there's a thread on TRF about it, but once the draw was made I knew I was in trouble. Spencer could be knocked for various rides, the one on Silver Pivotal in the Winter Derby isn't one of them.
 
Anyone see Gallagher first time out at Newbury, now I backed the winner, but I struggle to see how he could finish that far behind Orizaba, yet since its never been out the first 2 and Spencer aint been near it.

Come come Chris. Since when has Brian Meehan been known for sending out 2 year old debutant winners? You know as well as anybody who watched that race that the horse had every chance but probably blew up, and was a classic Meehan type to improve markedly on debut. Yes, the horse was backed to favouritism, but he wouldn't be the first Meehan plunge horse to be turned over. Is Frankie Dettori uselss because he got beat yesterday on a Meehan odds on shot?

Unless I am mistaken, Jamie Spencer is still first jockey to Michael Bell (went all the way to Beverley on Tuesday, Hayley Turner going to Folkestone). Conjecture is one thing, as we saw in the summer when Cumani had supposedly jocked Spencer off, and yet Cumani is still putting him up. Spencer was on the floor after losing Ballydoyle, but brished himself off, and committed to show the world his worth by winning a jockeys title. At the end of that gruelling duel with Seb, he was obviously shot to bits, and immediately stated there would be no more title chasing for him.

So, without the spotlight of a jockeys title race, or a big retainer with one of the top owners/yards, it will always be easy for people to knock him, claiming his star is in the descendant. As I have repeatedly said, trainers and owners seek him for their hold up horses because they think he is good at it. This is why he is viewed as one dimensional.

Only time will tell who is right, but I think one day he will get another top job and prove how good he actually is.
 
I hope you are right about Jamie Spencer, numbersix.

Jockeys do go in and out of form much like many racehorses do. Some people may just like knocking certain jockeys especially if they are sometimes talking through their pockets. George Baker is one that has been down on his uppers in the past and he is back with the best of them again. If people feel that certain jockeys are rubbish on certain horses (or in some cases ALL horses) then fine, just steer clear of them if you are looking to have a punt in a particular race - although even those jockeys that you can't trust often throw up big surprises when things go their way and usually when you haven't got a bean on them!
 
Come come Chris. Since when has Brian Meehan been known for sending out 2 year old debutant winners? You know as well as anybody who watched that race that the horse had every chance but probably blew up, and was a classic Meehan type to improve markedly on debut. Yes, the horse was backed to favouritism, but he wouldn't be the first Meehan plunge horse to be turned over. Is Frankie Dettori uselss because he got beat yesterday on a Meehan odds on shot?

Unless I am mistaken, Jamie Spencer is still first jockey to Michael Bell (went all the way to Beverley on Tuesday, Hayley Turner going to Folkestone). Conjecture is one thing, as we saw in the summer when Cumani had supposedly jocked Spencer off, and yet Cumani is still putting him up. Spencer was on the floor after losing Ballydoyle, but brished himself off, and committed to show the world his worth by winning a jockeys title. At the end of that gruelling duel with Seb, he was obviously shot to bits, and immediately stated there would be no more title chasing for him.

So, without the spotlight of a jockeys title race, or a big retainer with one of the top owners/yards, it will always be easy for people to knock him, claiming his star is in the descendant. As I have repeatedly said, trainers and owners seek him for their hold up horses because they think he is good at it. This is why he is viewed as one dimensional.

Only time will tell who is right, but I think one day he will get another top job and prove how good he actually is.

No I just don't think you see the same Dettori on outside rides as you do on Godolphin horses. Also you say he is still first jockey to Bell, well I know numerous fancied horses that he wasn't wanted on to ride this season, which Hayley got on.

You say about Spencer and Cumani, but he doesn't ride the best 3 horses in the yard.
 
Silver Pivotal should have won the Winter Derby, whether I backed it heavily or not is irrelevant. She was given an appalling ride, even the Racing Post report says "he was still at the back of the field threefurlongs out, Jamie Spencer yet to make a move, and there were only two behind her into the straight, where she was forced to come wide."

Yes, but as the RP, myself and now Dave Johnson have reminded you, her race position was due to her nightmare draw. She needs to be dropped in, so to do this Spencer had to let the horses on his inside go on. This meant he was shuffled to the rear. When Dream Lodge decided to stack the field up at the top of the hill, any chance of winning went, as Silver Pivotal was forced wide and the race turned into a bit of a sprint to the line off the home turn. You can clearly see Spencer is riding for all his worth as they start to swing in, so he was not sitting motionless and showboating. In the end the filly picked up late, but there is little Spencer could have done differently. If he had ridden her to get handy, and she had run too free you would have blamed him for not adopting her usual hold up tactics. If he had not dropped in and sat out wide on the course (a la Summers Target) you would have blamed him. In the end he did what any jockey would have done - sat and suffered, hoped for a truly run race (which it was not), made a decision coming down the hill to go through horses or come wide, and then went for it. What if he had elected to come through horses and finished unplaced? Would you have preferred that? If she had reappeared at Windsor and won douing handsprings, then people may have a degree of sympathy with you. However that Windsor run has shed new light on the Lingfield ride, and in the final analysis Spencer probably gave her a brilliant ride to finish as close as he did given the draw and the pace of the race.

You're hardly comparing like for like by looking at her run with Dettori on at Windsor as that was on turf and she's evidently a better horse on the all-weather. If a sensible jockey had been riding her, she'd have a group win to her name.

Oh, but doesn't the same RP analysis that you selectively quote from go on to state that she should be every bit as effective on turf? She has had 7 lifetime starts, one of which came on turf. It is far too early to conclude she is evidently better on the sand that turf. Indeed, being by Pivotal one might assume her best form will emerge on truf with some give.

Commenting on the form of runners that beats him doesn't strengthen your argument at all. In fact, it weakens it.

Why? Surely if the horse that beat her has proven Group Class, and she does not, and he then goes on to confirm that Group Class level of form then surely it is relevant. Until she proves herself up to winning at Group level this season, then surely it is not wrong to assume she was simply beaten by a better horse.

You believe that if she entered the straight on the girth of Hattan she would have won. I totally, 100% disagree. Hattan may be inconsistent, but on his day he has proven Group winning form, unlike Silver Pivotal, and when on song is a dour battler and very hard to pass.

You talk of the Betfair forum as being full of morons in one breath and then use their targeted baiting of certain jockeys to defend your questionable critique of Spencer.

I am not so blind as to say Spencer has never given a horse a bad ride, but imo he gets it wrong less than most. You need to also bear in mind that his four main patrons, Bell, Fanshawe, Meehan and Cumani - who currently stand at 19th, 28th, 20th and 28th in the trainers lists. Yet Spencer still manages to hold his own in the top 5 jockleys riding. I wonder how he would perform if he had the resources of a Stoute or Hannon at his disposal?
 
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No I just don't think you see the same Dettori on outside rides as you do on Godolphin horses. Also you say he is still first jockey to Bell, well I know numerous fancied horses that he wasn't wanted on to ride this season, which Hayley got on.

You say about Spencer and Cumani, but he doesn't ride the best 3 horses in the yard.

Yes, but that is obviously owner intervention? He didn't do a great deal wrong for Cumani in last season's Ebor. As for Bell, he has to go with the owners wishes, however he still sends Spencer to Beverley for the one ride. Why not send Hayley if she is No 1?
 
He was sent for two rides, but Hoh Mile whom he always rides, was actually not 100% so didn't run. Eddie Boy is not held in any regard either.

So please research your facts before you make an opinion.

No trainer will send two jocks to one meeting when it means they are missing out on outside chances.

She also replaced Spencer on Regime last week, whom is one of the yards better horses. Spencer normally rides for The Queen and Matt Green. Not many of the yards other owners put him up, they prefer Hayley.

The yards reaction after his ride on La Adelita last week, also suggests he probably won't be on that in the near distant future.
 
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