Iran And The Holocaust
- Thread starter clivex
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Grasshopper
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The hypocrisy is not in the outrage expressed about the conference per se.
The hypocrisy is in the dismissal of similiar Islamic outrage re the Mohammed cartoons.
My point being that, as far as I see it, both sides feel an entitlement to be outraged, but when the Muslims were doing their dinger, they were told to feck right off, and that they didn't understand the concept of freedom of speech.
The hypocrisy is in the dismissal of similiar Islamic outrage re the Mohammed cartoons.
My point being that, as far as I see it, both sides feel an entitlement to be outraged, but when the Muslims were doing their dinger, they were told to feck right off, and that they didn't understand the concept of freedom of speech.
Harbinger
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Your analogy is flawed - you have to seperate the action (eating, speaking) with the content (cream buns, holocaust denial). No-one is suggesting the Iranians shouldn't speak freely (eat), but they reserve the right to object to the content (cream buns).
Grasshopper
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See my last post, Gareth - you're far too quick off the mark for me!
It was a shite analogy though - I'll give you that. No wonder you felt a sense of outrage at it.
It was a shite analogy though - I'll give you that. No wonder you felt a sense of outrage at it.
Grasshopper
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I'm pretty sure that all of the world's problems, could be solved by a limitless supply of sticky buns. If only they grew on trees.
I think the rest of the world is rightly treating this with the lip curling contempt that it deserves.....
Of course words will be said, but frankly you can only really get angry with those that fundamentally disappoint you...
The iranian leadership with its racism and bigotry (admired by some i see...) cannot be taken seriously by the civilised world of course
the sadness is that the iranian people have to live with this, but my original point was that the backlash may be starting
i agree with brian too
If we nuked Iran tomorrow and then denied it....
Of course words will be said, but frankly you can only really get angry with those that fundamentally disappoint you...
The iranian leadership with its racism and bigotry (admired by some i see...) cannot be taken seriously by the civilised world of course
the sadness is that the iranian people have to live with this, but my original point was that the backlash may be starting
i agree with brian too
If we nuked Iran tomorrow and then denied it....
Grasshopper
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Am I to assume that this is directed at me, clivex?
Would this be the same Iranian Government that the Iraq Study Group is urging the neo-cons to sit down with, in an effort to help sort out the mess that the 'civilised world' helped create?
I can't see any reason for people to get so aerated about this, whether it comes from the lips of a country's leader or not. If you want to spend a few merry hours at your computer, just check out the number of Holocaust sites, and the surprising number which deny not so much that vast numbers of Jews, homosexuals, Romanies and mental defectives were murdered by the Nazis (to keep the slaughter in its full perspective), as against it not happening at all.
There have been, for as long as the Internet's been around, a lot of sites saying that the numbers were ridiculously inflated, because there just weren't that MANY Jews (according to the censuses taken at the time) living in this or that village or town.
Now, I don't think I've heard wailing in the streets and the gnashing of international teeth over these, calling for them to be closed down as Holocaust deniers, etc., which is what they're near as dammit doing. Once you start to attack the statistics and provide a set of your own which appear to support an over-inflation of those murdered in the camps, then provide what are apparently also figures re-jigged by the UN to support your own views, then you can see where Holocaust denial starts to look reasonable.
I have no opinion on the stats, because I'm sure that immediate figures during and after the war were difficult to come by, given that many Jews (among the other persecuted peoples) fled into hiding hither and thither, and were presumed lost to the gas chambers, only to reappear in different countries once their safety was clear.
Iran's official position vis-a-vis Israel has been clear for years, since the departure of the Shah, so it shouldn't come as a shock that it seeks to ram home this message as part of its portfolio of hatred. However, as has been wisely said above, there is no total agreement among Iranians on the issue, except that the prospect of dangling publicly from a crane isn't the best incentive to voice dissent (having been fitted up as a drug smuggler first). We may never know how many Iranians despise the current governmental attitude, although we can guess from the thousands in exile since the early 1980s that there will be plenty.
There have been, for as long as the Internet's been around, a lot of sites saying that the numbers were ridiculously inflated, because there just weren't that MANY Jews (according to the censuses taken at the time) living in this or that village or town.
Now, I don't think I've heard wailing in the streets and the gnashing of international teeth over these, calling for them to be closed down as Holocaust deniers, etc., which is what they're near as dammit doing. Once you start to attack the statistics and provide a set of your own which appear to support an over-inflation of those murdered in the camps, then provide what are apparently also figures re-jigged by the UN to support your own views, then you can see where Holocaust denial starts to look reasonable.
I have no opinion on the stats, because I'm sure that immediate figures during and after the war were difficult to come by, given that many Jews (among the other persecuted peoples) fled into hiding hither and thither, and were presumed lost to the gas chambers, only to reappear in different countries once their safety was clear.
Iran's official position vis-a-vis Israel has been clear for years, since the departure of the Shah, so it shouldn't come as a shock that it seeks to ram home this message as part of its portfolio of hatred. However, as has been wisely said above, there is no total agreement among Iranians on the issue, except that the prospect of dangling publicly from a crane isn't the best incentive to voice dissent (having been fitted up as a drug smuggler first). We may never know how many Iranians despise the current governmental attitude, although we can guess from the thousands in exile since the early 1980s that there will be plenty.
aha....
Intersting. along the lines of " i couldnt comment but they ahve a point perhaps..."
Nasty
Anyway. The point is that its a GOVERNMENT saying that the holocaust is a "myth" (his words) not a crackpot website
And the next obvious question is why are they obsessed with this?
Grass. it is yes. Unfortunate as that may be, but its needs must in that case. you cant choose your neighbours....
Intersting. along the lines of " i couldnt comment but they ahve a point perhaps..."
Nasty
Anyway. The point is that its a GOVERNMENT saying that the holocaust is a "myth" (his words) not a crackpot website
And the next obvious question is why are they obsessed with this?
Grass. it is yes. Unfortunate as that may be, but its needs must in that case. you cant choose your neighbours....
Grasshopper
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Clivex, in what way have I expressed admiration for the Iranian leaderships racism and bigotry?
BrianH
At the Start
Which, of course, as I said, we do not have in the UK or Ireland.
BrianH
At the Start
Of course it does. I asked you that in your "fredom of speech has no boundaries" campaign do you believe that such terms are permissible?
Grasshopper
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And which I absolutely do not dispute, BrianH.
I made the reference only to counteract Gareth's assertion that "there is no attempt so far by any "Western" power to limit freedom of speech".
In your example, you provided a list of eleven countries which do exactly that.
Eight of them are EU member states, one is an acceeding EU state, one is Israel, and one is Switzerland.
That constitutes 'Western' in my book.
I made the reference only to counteract Gareth's assertion that "there is no attempt so far by any "Western" power to limit freedom of speech".
In your example, you provided a list of eleven countries which do exactly that.
Eight of them are EU member states, one is an acceeding EU state, one is Israel, and one is Switzerland.
That constitutes 'Western' in my book.
like this maybe Grass?
Either way i welcomed the cartoons as freedom a fine example of freedom of speech and am ashamed taht no newspaper in thsi country had the guts to print them. Fortunately I found them on the net (and pretty limp they were too)
As for holocaust denial? im not sure whether it should be illegal frankly> people like Krizon can wonder about the actual figures (as if it really makes a difference) and otehrs can live in the fairyland of conspiracy theories, but denial sint going to wash with intelligent civilised people....
the Iranian leadership promoting free speech? Thats an interesting concept....
"western hypocrisy". Well...i think theres just a little bit more free speech here than there and if thats the point hes really trying to make, then hes on slippery ground...
Grasshopper
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Of course it does. I asked you that in your "fredom of speech has no boundaries" campaign do you believe that such terms are permissible? [/b][/quote]
And I gave you an answer: anyone who uses such terms is either a racist, extremely unpleasant, or - more usually - both.
However, I don't think we should legislate against the term.
Grasshopper
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Clivex, I suggest you get back to your Daily Mail, crayons and paper circles.
You are clearly unable to follow the debate, or interpret what is being said.
You totally missing the point about freedom of speech, and your misrepresentation of my legitimate question about Ahmedinejad's tactics, is either wilful on your part, or due to ignorance.
I go 5/6 the pair.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Grasshopper. Freedom of speech cannot be absolute.
Defamation of character, libel etc. laws are all necessary infringements on freedom of speech. I believe that holocaust denial should be added to that.
To try to separate everything nice and simply into black and white is a bit naive, in my opinion.
Defamation of character, libel etc. laws are all necessary infringements on freedom of speech. I believe that holocaust denial should be added to that.
To try to separate everything nice and simply into black and white is a bit naive, in my opinion.
Not unlike Kriz, I can't say I'm the least bit offended by them having a conference, but then again I'm not Jewish, and don't have any connection, direct or indirect with any victims. I'm happy enough however, that I know the truth (if not the precise figure obviously) and with that in mind, I'd let them have their little show piece, and even give it a fair coverage in the interests of taking the higher moral ground, of freedom and tolerance etc.
It makes for quite an interesting thread as you watch its development. Not surprisingly, Clivex starts it and duly takes the bait (launches into his usual tirade against the "Vile people") quite possibly labouring under the delusion that if he can feign a degree of moral outrage in the name of the Holocaust, then he can secure for himself a moral platform to pedal is real agenda off. A number of other people duly follow him in. Nothing new there, but lets pause for a minute. Did something not dis-similar happen recently (last weel) regarding an inflamatory falsehood that Merlin posted, designed to provoke exactly this kind of response. Those of you who took the bait that day, were made to look pretty gullible and exercising poor judgement within a matter of hours.
Now you point to the fact that the two are not like for like the same. You'd be right. One was factually untrue, the other does at least appear to be legitimate. But if some people stopped to think, consider and unravel things before launching into a knew jerk acceptance of the bait, then perhaps we wouldn't rush in so readily.
It was only when Grassy points out the fact that its likely a calculated exercise, designed to provoke and inflame opinions and reactions (that the likes of Clivex exhibit all to compliantly) and also in context, something with the potential to show up hypocracy and the application of a double standard. People like Clivex (again) should realise that they're walking straight into this kind of thing, as where as I'm sure you wouldn't want to do anything to bolster Tehran Clive, in allowing yourself to get drawn into these kind reactions, then I fear that you doing just that (to some extent) as I'm quite sure this is what they're trying to provoke. Now I'm not accussing you of being an agent of radical Islam for one second (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one ) but an unwitting participant maybe?
So the Holocaust never happenend? We've heard it before, we know its wrong, and I for one am not going to launch into some kind of pre-programmed denunciation of utter moral revulsion against anyone who suggests it didn't, as it would be slightly insincere. I disagree with them, pity them, and feel obliged to point out the truth, but I'm not going to fake complete indignation at the suggestion. I'd be curious to know just how many people really are as offended as they post/ claim or make out. Or are they conforming with a reaction that reflects the norms of our society? inadvertantly reflecting what they think they should say/ feel, rather than what they really do? Or could it be that it presents a convenient platform from which to rage against something else, and as such the moral denunciation and issue at hand is little more than slightly cynical camouflage. As Krix points out, the issue of Holocaust denial is not new, and anyone wishing to raise it has 101 vehicles from which to run it off as an episode of history and its subsequent treatment.
It makes for quite an interesting thread as you watch its development. Not surprisingly, Clivex starts it and duly takes the bait (launches into his usual tirade against the "Vile people") quite possibly labouring under the delusion that if he can feign a degree of moral outrage in the name of the Holocaust, then he can secure for himself a moral platform to pedal is real agenda off. A number of other people duly follow him in. Nothing new there, but lets pause for a minute. Did something not dis-similar happen recently (last weel) regarding an inflamatory falsehood that Merlin posted, designed to provoke exactly this kind of response. Those of you who took the bait that day, were made to look pretty gullible and exercising poor judgement within a matter of hours.
Now you point to the fact that the two are not like for like the same. You'd be right. One was factually untrue, the other does at least appear to be legitimate. But if some people stopped to think, consider and unravel things before launching into a knew jerk acceptance of the bait, then perhaps we wouldn't rush in so readily.
It was only when Grassy points out the fact that its likely a calculated exercise, designed to provoke and inflame opinions and reactions (that the likes of Clivex exhibit all to compliantly) and also in context, something with the potential to show up hypocracy and the application of a double standard. People like Clivex (again) should realise that they're walking straight into this kind of thing, as where as I'm sure you wouldn't want to do anything to bolster Tehran Clive, in allowing yourself to get drawn into these kind reactions, then I fear that you doing just that (to some extent) as I'm quite sure this is what they're trying to provoke. Now I'm not accussing you of being an agent of radical Islam for one second (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one
) but an unwitting participant maybe?So the Holocaust never happenend? We've heard it before, we know its wrong, and I for one am not going to launch into some kind of pre-programmed denunciation of utter moral revulsion against anyone who suggests it didn't, as it would be slightly insincere. I disagree with them, pity them, and feel obliged to point out the truth, but I'm not going to fake complete indignation at the suggestion. I'd be curious to know just how many people really are as offended as they post/ claim or make out. Or are they conforming with a reaction that reflects the norms of our society? inadvertantly reflecting what they think they should say/ feel, rather than what they really do? Or could it be that it presents a convenient platform from which to rage against something else, and as such the moral denunciation and issue at hand is little more than slightly cynical camouflage. As Krix points out, the issue of Holocaust denial is not new, and anyone wishing to raise it has 101 vehicles from which to run it off as an episode of history and its subsequent treatment.
Grasshopper
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Agreed Bar The Bull
The 'all or nothing' bit was really directed at Gareth applying what appeared to be special dispensation on the Holocaust debate - it was not intended as an advocation of a verbal free-for-all, with no rules applied.
As I said (much) earlier in this thread: "If someone denies it (the Holocaust), and then goes on to stoke up racial hatred on the back of it, then that's a different matter altogether, I wholeheartedly agree."
I'd prefer that we legislated against action, rather than words or thoughts.
Anyway, I didn't enter this thread to debate the extent and compass of what 'freedom of speech' means. I entered it to enquire whether there was a hidden subtlety in Ahmedinejad's putting this conference on in the first place.
Whether I like him or not (and I'm as indifferent to him as I am most politicians, in case anyone was wondering) I think he has played his hand expertly - from a purely political viewpoint.
I'm sure if you read the next few sentances Clive, as you've selectively 'cut and pasted' where you did, then its pretty clear what I said. And the words "Not dis-similar" as opposed to 'indentical', 'the same' etc were used quite deliberately.
I'm not a conference denier
But was imploring people to think before reacting thus. For what its worth, I think Grassy's right. It's a tactic, not an attempt to re-write history. If the West repsonds in the way that they're hoping we will ,then they will have achieved their objective. There would be nothing that the Islamic media would love more than for us to be taking to the streets burning flags and whipping up the flames of religious hatred.
I don't mind taking a fight when I have to, but this one really is a case of turn the other cheek, or challenge in the spirit of openess and facts etc. The trophy is the high moral ground in this one, not a question of proving 5 million, 6 million or none at all etc that's just background scenary (cyncial as it maybe) thats been invoked to try and precipitate an undeclared reaction. If we take the bait, we risk forfeiting some of this territory
I'm not a conference denier
But was imploring people to think before reacting thus. For what its worth, I think Grassy's right. It's a tactic, not an attempt to re-write history. If the West repsonds in the way that they're hoping we will ,then they will have achieved their objective. There would be nothing that the Islamic media would love more than for us to be taking to the streets burning flags and whipping up the flames of religious hatred.
I don't mind taking a fight when I have to, but this one really is a case of turn the other cheek, or challenge in the spirit of openess and facts etc. The trophy is the high moral ground in this one, not a question of proving 5 million, 6 million or none at all etc that's just background scenary (cyncial as it maybe) thats been invoked to try and precipitate an undeclared reaction. If we take the bait, we risk forfeiting some of this territory
warbler
you seem to assume that i am "outraged" about this..
ok. I called their leadership vile, but then again thats pretty well indisputed...
But contempt is my reaction. Its pathetic frankly... no more
Try reading my original post
I am refering to the BACKLASH to this within Iran.
That is what interests me.
you seem to assume that i am "outraged" about this..
ok. I called their leadership vile, but then again thats pretty well indisputed...
But contempt is my reaction. Its pathetic frankly... no more
Try reading my original post
I am refering to the BACKLASH to this within Iran.
That is what interests me.