Jamie Spencer
- Thread starter harry
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
He had so much horse under him he could have and perhaps should have gone round them rather than through them
But at least he's a good judge of pace
There are over 8000 horses in training on the flat and dozens of jockeys who are simply awful at judging pace.
Everyday watching the flat you see them sitting there and if you have backed one YOU are thinking when is this thick c*** and his mates going to realise they are in trouble.
They give horses way too much leeway and when the pace quickens and they seem not to notice and by the time they do they couldn't win of they were on Dancing Brave in a seller.
Standard of riding on the flat is pathetic
But at least he's a good judge of pace
There are over 8000 horses in training on the flat and dozens of jockeys who are simply awful at judging pace.
Everyday watching the flat you see them sitting there and if you have backed one YOU are thinking when is this thick c*** and his mates going to realise they are in trouble.
They give horses way too much leeway and when the pace quickens and they seem not to notice and by the time they do they couldn't win of they were on Dancing Brave in a seller.
Standard of riding on the flat is pathetic
An interesting point - my gut feeling is that outside the top handful of riders flat jockeys are not as good as they once were but maybe that is simply because there is so much racing nowadays lots more jockeys ride regularly and get to make some living out of it than in the 1970s - in the past they would not have got on the track .
I remember Fulke Johnson Houghton being interviewed some years ago and saying that getting good jockeys on Bank Holidays ( the only days when we used to have lots of meetings on the Flat ) was a nightmare as you were often scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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You make a good point about more racing being a factor Ardross. I actually think there is a more reasonable explanation as to why the standard of flat jockeys isn't that good and it just basically comes from the size of the group who are eligible to even attempt to become Jockey's. If you were to take any sport in the world and limit it to males weighing under 8 stone then i'm pretty sure the standards of those sports would drop. I don't have any figures but I would think that males of this stature make up a pretty small percentage of the population especially in the U.k,Ireland and the U.S. Over the years for whatever reasons we seem to get bigger Heavyweight boxers from years gone by would barely be middleweights in this day and age and if you took boxing as an example of quality it has always been a case that the extreme divisions are less competitive. Straw weight and heavyweight divisions alike usually lack a strength in depth and you find the middleweight and welterweight divisions more competitive down to the size of the sample group they come from I'd believe the average man ripped to shreds or boxing fit if you like would weigh between 10-12 stone. I think a simple way to raise the quality of the jockeys is just to raise the weights that the horses carry. I think even by raising them up by a stone within a few years you'd see the standards lift. I don't mingle with horse racing folk or around yards but I'm sure many of those who do know someone who could have been a good jockey but just unfortunately grew too much. I suppose most have the chance to become jump jockeys where personally I think the general standard is a bit better although when I see them in a couple of months standing around at the start looking gormless as they decided whose making the pace before spotting somebody a 20 length lead...I may want to retract that statement. If you look at how well the likes of Crowley and Graham Lee have done for themselves switching codes its not just coincidence I don't think.
I suppose you could also add to the small sample group the fact that not only do jockey's need to be small but most of the time they need to have grown up in an area where horse riding is part of the culture. Growing up in an industrial town most kids have barely seen a horse never mind ridden one. I know growing up myself in some slum of the west midlands the only horses we really saw were the ones the gypsies had staked in the fields. You could also add in the fact that I think in most sports our nation is suffering at the hands of generation x box( snapchat, facebook) and all the rest of that caper. If your seeing less and less kids kicking a ball in the streets then I'd hazard a guess that there are plenty of kids who could only ride a horse on some sort of App. Unfortunately its hard to see standards improving to the point where maybe in 20 years time we'll be saying things like "remember Jamie Spencer what a jockey he was"
well maybe not that bad 
I suppose you could also add to the small sample group the fact that not only do jockey's need to be small but most of the time they need to have grown up in an area where horse riding is part of the culture. Growing up in an industrial town most kids have barely seen a horse never mind ridden one. I know growing up myself in some slum of the west midlands the only horses we really saw were the ones the gypsies had staked in the fields. You could also add in the fact that I think in most sports our nation is suffering at the hands of generation x box( snapchat, facebook) and all the rest of that caper. If your seeing less and less kids kicking a ball in the streets then I'd hazard a guess that there are plenty of kids who could only ride a horse on some sort of App. Unfortunately its hard to see standards improving to the point where maybe in 20 years time we'll be saying things like "remember Jamie Spencer what a jockey he was"
well maybe not that bad
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I think the preponderance of cameras and social media saturation amplifies errors. However I agree with Ardross on the general ability point. The current championship leaders on either side of the Irish Sea would be 'John Matthias' forty years ago.
What exactly do you think he did wrong apart from not being psychic? Does he wait for a non existent gap to open up on the rails or go where there is a gap further out? The logical thing is to go where the gap is, if that gap then closes by the horse on the rails moving out how can anyone be expected to know that would happen in advance?
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I think it's fair to say Harry never said he anything wrong?
I backed the horse in the place only market (3) because he can be a bit of a madam in running so I was happy with the result.
Watching it again there was a gap 2 1/2 out but he chose not to attempt to take it and rightly so as it closed 2 seconds later when Go Now Go Now drifted right..
When he switched to the inside the Johnstone horse caused Motown Mick to start to also go right causing Jamie to switch yet again.
As I said earlier, being smart after the fact he should have gone round them. Afterall it was a small field.
The way I look at it is if you have a load of horse under you the safest move is go wide because you can lose lengths waiting.
Watch Kempton and how many good things get beat there:-
Held up on inner in rear-division, going well and held together waiting for cutaway over 2f out
The odd one gets away with that but most don't and many a punter has pulled his hair out watching it happen time and time again.
Why they decide to take the chance a gap will against going round a small field or coming 3 wide round 1 turn beats me.
I backed the horse in the place only market (3) because he can be a bit of a madam in running so I was happy with the result.
Watching it again there was a gap 2 1/2 out but he chose not to attempt to take it and rightly so as it closed 2 seconds later when Go Now Go Now drifted right..
When he switched to the inside the Johnstone horse caused Motown Mick to start to also go right causing Jamie to switch yet again.
As I said earlier, being smart after the fact he should have gone round them. Afterall it was a small field.
The way I look at it is if you have a load of horse under you the safest move is go wide because you can lose lengths waiting.
Watch Kempton and how many good things get beat there:-
Held up on inner in rear-division, going well and held together waiting for cutaway over 2f out
The odd one gets away with that but most don't and many a punter has pulled his hair out watching it happen time and time again.
Why they decide to take the chance a gap will against going round a small field or coming 3 wide round 1 turn beats me.
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Did he have a load of horse under him? Would he know others didn't have a load of horse under them? Taking the safest move isn't always the best way to win a competitive race and can be the wimps way out. You can lose lengths and races always going to the outside and meet interference on the way. People would say why go to the outside when there is a perfectly reasonable gap where he was? Stewards report states Spencers horse was hit on the nose by one jockey and suffered interference from another horse. Although frustrating not Spencers fault I'm afraid without hindsight.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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I don't have too many issues with the ability of jockeys nowadays.
I think the general level is high, the peak level not as high as it maybe once was. I've watched younger claimers, male and female, look as stylish through a race but maybe not polished yet in a finish. They don't look out of place among the seniors for most of the race.
I'm entirely serious when I say I once saw Geoff Lewis (famous for riding Mill Reef, for the youngsters reading this) get himself boxed in in a two-horse race at Newmarket. I saw Piggott totally balls up many rides, just as Moore does. In Piggott's case, a lot of the time I suspected it was deliberate...
I have no doubt in my mind that today's top jockeys deliberately lose certain races. I cannot think of one I would exempt from that opinion.
I think the general level is high, the peak level not as high as it maybe once was. I've watched younger claimers, male and female, look as stylish through a race but maybe not polished yet in a finish. They don't look out of place among the seniors for most of the race.
I'm entirely serious when I say I once saw Geoff Lewis (famous for riding Mill Reef, for the youngsters reading this) get himself boxed in in a two-horse race at Newmarket. I saw Piggott totally balls up many rides, just as Moore does. In Piggott's case, a lot of the time I suspected it was deliberate...
I have no doubt in my mind that today's top jockeys deliberately lose certain races. I cannot think of one I would exempt from that opinion.
I think where the flat is concerned this is right.
The jumps has seen the recent retirements of McCoy, FitzG, Llewellyn and Carberry and the transfer to the flat of Lee, Crowley, Costello and a few others but still has the best of them all, Ruby Walsh, the classy Barry Geraghty and the superbly professional and likable Richard Johnson. When that trio retire a golden age will have ended.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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Richard Johnson: professional and likeable? I'll leave others to judge. In my opinion the most over-rated jockey of all time. He's only ridden so many winners on account of his reputation.
There are countless similar examples in many walks of life. You find yourself an 'established' name and suddenly you're in demand. You then nly need a percentage of those demands to come to fruition and you're made.
Tricky Dicky is one.
He's always a negative in my book but I accept I'm in a tiny minority.
There are countless similar examples in many walks of life. You find yourself an 'established' name and suddenly you're in demand. You then nly need a percentage of those demands to come to fruition and you're made.
Tricky Dicky is one.
He's always a negative in my book but I accept I'm in a tiny minority.
I reckon you're right to accept you're in a tiny minority.
If his time in racing hadn't overlapped almost entirely with McCoy, Richard Johnson would have been a multiple champion and set new records that would have been regarded as beyond imagination only a few years before. Even as it is he is he has ridden way more winners than anyone else in history bar AP.
Maybe it suited him to be overshadowed, because he shows no signs of having a big ego.
If his time in racing hadn't overlapped almost entirely with McCoy, Richard Johnson would have been a multiple champion and set new records that would have been regarded as beyond imagination only a few years before. Even as it is he is he has ridden way more winners than anyone else in history bar AP.
Maybe it suited him to be overshadowed, because he shows no signs of having a big ego.
Agree 100%
It’s always a bonus to have Dickie on a horse in my opinion although Aidan Coleman will overtake him before long
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Maybe you are referring to a younger Piggott in the late 1970s and 1980s I do not recall him making many mistakes - getting Adonijah in a pocket in the Waterford crystal Mile is one but I don't remember many others .
All jockeys are human had Steve Cauthen not given Slip Anchor and Oh So Sharp such unnecessarily hard rides in their Epsom classics they might have remained unbeaten . Eddery also ride a few stinkers .
Desert Orchid
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Just to clarify, I never like seeing RJ booked for anything I fancy but I accept the fact he is booked should be a positive.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Don't forget Davy Russell...Like Ruby and Barry he always seems to be in the right place at the right time. All 3 have amazing clocks in their heads...It could be something to do with the fact all 3 were born in the same year
When I first got into racing there were several brilliant flat jockeys and most of the jump jockeys rode like Andrew Thornton . It seems that the standard of jump jockeys has improved immeasurably whilst flat jockeys generally are in declining in standard .
Yes, I should have mentioned Davy