Jan Brueghel out of Melbourne Cup

In Australia they’re shooting the wild Brumbies by helicopter and leaving their foals to starve. At the same time terrified that a horse will be injured in it’s showcase race.
 
I do appreciate the facts that AC has posted about the exceptional veterinary facilities and workforce that Ballydoyle have available to them. But likewise I will never forget them insisting Kieran Fallon ride Horatio Nelson in the Derby. He was adamant that the horse was wrong on the way to the start, vets were summoned, messages went back to AOB and the horse ran only to break down fatally down the straight. It was a horrific sight.

The Melbourne Cup is huge worldwide. They have a large anti contingent in the country so if their vets have flagged up a problem then they have to suck it up. I don’t think for a minute it’s a case of “sour grapes we don’t want you winning our race” which is currently being banded around social media. Of course they’re frustrated. But their rules. And the same as in the US. Look at the Grand National backlash when there’s a fatality.
 
an capall said:
All true Ian, but perhaps the decision process could be a little more inclusive and more informed opinions could be heard.

AOB had an emotional reaction to a bureaucratic process (with a smell of 'me feinerism' about it), mostly because his voice wasn't heard in my opinion. When I interface with a call-centre I fully realise I'm engaging with a defined operational process. But I still get angry when the line is cut off after a silent wait for 30 mins.
Click to expand...
Maybe 1 person in this forum knows wtf you are talking about regarding feinerism and it's not me...😯
 
This elimination beats the hell out of me...The St leger is one of the toughest races on the Uk calendar and he came out of it fit and we'll or AOB would never have sent him.....his own bets must be thinking wtf
 
I can only surmise that the Aussie vets took scans at a slightly different angle and they saw a shadow that possibly indicated there could be something there.
 
Ian_Davies said:
Google is forever your friend - if you allow it to be.

I wasn't familiar with the term, either, but I am now and I'm grateful for the extension to my vocabulary: mé féiner - Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
Click to expand...

I've said it before, every day is a school day.

The correct pronunciation would also help, that way I can befuddle my old duffer mates at the Men's Shed 🤣

I'm doing a 'Brush Up Your Spanish' class with them. They'd really love a course called 'Brush Up Yer Erse'...
 
Add in the fact that all scans are of that moment ; they could scan slightly different in a week or two due to bone changes and development so an all clear in Ireland a few weeks ago means less than we think.
I remember , as I am sure more on here can getting a clear x ray only to be told return in 7 to 10 days if the pain persists.
 
Btw, I'm a sentimental fan of the St Leger - first big day's racing I'd ever attended when my Dad took me in 1978 and I probably went to about ten after that - but I don't see how winning it turns the victor into some sort of indestructible beast out of Greek mythology who should be exempt from scans.
 
I just think it’s a big ask anyway for a European three year old (and a May foaled one at that) to run in it? Last three year old to win the Cup was in 1941!
 
Overseas horses running in the cup cover 6 of the 7 deaths at the spring carnival in the last ten years. Granted, one of those was a truly unlucky accident on the way in, and another was a heart attack back in the stables - but even so, four European horses have died, two of those were O’Brien’s and while Cliffs of Moher was a shoulder, the others were all fetlocks, which is exactly where the fissures have shown up on the ct scans that JB is showing. Two legs as well don’t forget - this isn’t just one leg that could be compromised. All of these checks came in after AVD broke his fetlock - and there have been no fatalities in the race since. Everyone goes through the same checks and there’s an international panel of vets who look at them, it’s not just one person.

Nobody’s saying that they sent a horse with issues over - their MRI scans quite feasibly wouldn’t have shown anything starting. BUT this horse has travelled thousands of miles, is training in a totally different way to what he’s used to because of the nature of Werribee, he’s still working and existing ( and anyone with half an ounce of horse knowledge knows about the thoroughbred ‘s propensity for injuring themselves in many and varied ways) and he’s still growing.
Throw in a CT scan which is much more intense than MRI and it’s no great surprise there’s stuff going on. It’s no conspiracy against the overseas horses - at least one Australian horse has been spun after the scan as well, they won’t let anything run there if they are so much as suspicious something could go wrong. They withdraw at the start of races if there’s so much as a bang in the stalls ( usually it’s the one I’ve picked !) they just don’t want the bad press anywhere, but especially spring carnival.

If I was the connections, would I be pissed? Absolutely. Would I be glad he’s not being risked, can go on and race in places that they don’t worry about things so much and hopefully have a stud career after? Yes. Though I wouldn’t be entering him up before knowing for certain he’s as good as he’s able to be.
 
edgt said:
Add in the fact that all scans are of that moment ; they could scan slightly different in a week or two due to bone changes and development so an all clear in Ireland a few weeks ago means less than we think.
I remember , as I am sure more on here can getting a clear x ray only to be told return in 7 to 10 days if the pain persists.
Click to expand...
Yup. Pretty basic stuff.

Shouldn't be running. The rest is just noise!
 
Different code,different continent -I can remember the Bradstocks going ballistic when they were forced to withdraw Coneygree from his chasing debut at Plumpton -the racecourse vet decided he was showing signs of lameness.I laid him in his next 2 races on the grounds that he was doddery -am I right in saying he was undefeated that season.
Personally I think if connections are happy for their horse to run that's good enough for me.
 
I think in the end it boils down to where you stand on the 'horses are pets - horses are livestock' spectrum and your attitude to the attendant risk. I get what JJ and Trudij et al are arguing, but in that case why will there not be the same depth of scrutiny at Hereford on Monday?

I'm with Luke - if AOB is happy to run his horses that's good enough for me too.
 
For me, it's an age-old issue.

Racing, so like many things, is a predatory sport and "pot hunting" is rife.

This particular outfit - and it could be any outfit - wanted to run their horse in the Melbourne Cup because it's a massive prize for what it is (a 2m handicap) and they thought their horse was well in.

They're happy to take the risk.

Plus as they're a huge successful operation there is a touch of the "how dare anyone overrule them about the soundness of their horse?" attached to the social media debate.

But it's not as simple as that - there is a wider picture.

When you enter a race it's like asking to be invited to a house party - and even a non-partygoer unsociable hermit (tautology much) like me knows that if you want to attend a house party you need to accept the house rules.

Coolmore and O'Brien might not care much about the historical Melbourne Cup fatality rate, but Racing Victoria understandably do.

So they set local scan rules, which anyone entering can see from the get go - you walk into it with your eyes open.

It seems to a 61yo like me that we live in an increasingly self-entitled world where there is an expectation that the bigger you are, the more you should be able to do what you want, when you want, take what you want and all on your own terms, right down to calling the shots regarding running your horse in someone else's horse race for someone else's prize money.

It's the antithesis of everything I believe in as an egalitarian.

I'm glad to see Racing Victoria standing up to a big outfit in a way you frankly don't see a lot of over here, where it's manifestly one rule for some, another rule for others at every level of British racing.
 
an capall said:
I think in the end it boils down to where you stand on the 'horses are pets - horses are livestock' spectrum and your attitude to the attendant risk. I get what JJ and Trudij et al are arguing, but in that case why will there not be the same depth of scrutiny at Hereford on Monday?

I'm with Luke - if AOB is happy to run his horses that's good enough for me too.
Click to expand...
When AOB comes clean about having xray vision with a ct option in his glasses ( maybe that’s why he wears them all the time - might explain it 🤣) then Id be more than happy to accept that he can overrule technology showing up a problem.
It’s not even if you think of them as pets or livestock - it comes down to if you have the extra knowledge that the testing has given you and STILL want to send a horse out to race in a situation he’s never met before knowing there’s a much greater risk of injury than normal.
I’m very vocal about knowing whenever a horse goes out to race there’s a chance it won’t come back. This is something we all have to make peace with whenever we bet or own or ride or look after them. But when you know there’s a weakness that means the odds are even more stacked against them? That’s unacceptable no matter who you are - considering how the Ballydoyle horses who have survived have done since running in it, I expected better from someone of his calibre. That’s on me though, I thought he cared about them a lot more than he does.
 
trudij said:
I’m getting really sick of this discussion all over the internet. If anyone can listen to this vet and still think RV are doing the wrong thing then I don’t know what to say 🤷‍♀️

www.rsn.net.au

Leading Equine Vet Explains The Jan Brueghel Scanning Procedure | Rsn

www.rsn.net.au www.rsn.net.au
Click to expand...
Thanks, well worth a listen.

I can understand AOB’s frustration that the problem only emerged after spending a fortune to bring the horse to Melbourne, but Racing Victoria have put these thorough procedures in place for good reasons.
 
jinnyj said:
I do appreciate the facts that AC has posted about the exceptional veterinary facilities and workforce that Ballydoyle have available to them. But likewise I will never forget them insisting Kieran Fallon ride Horatio Nelson in the Derby. He was adamant that the horse was wrong on the way to the start, vets were summoned, messages went back to AOB and the horse ran only to break down fatally down the straight. It was a horrific sight.

The Melbourne Cup is huge worldwide. They have a large anti contingent in the country so if their vets have flagged up a problem then they have to suck it up. I don’t think for a minute it’s a case of “sour grapes we don’t want you winning our race” which is currently being banded around social media. Of course they’re frustrated. But their rules. And the same as in the US. Look at the Grand National backlash when there’s a fatality.
Click to expand...
That Horatio Nelson thing was appalling. He was clearly lame pulling up at the start, quite how they ran him is probably a rabbit hole you don’t want to go down - how that vet must have felt three minutes later….
 
trudij said:
Overseas horses running in the cup cover 6 of the 7 deaths at the spring carnival in the last ten years. Granted, one of those was a truly unlucky accident on the way in, and another was a heart attack back in the stables - but even so, four European horses have died, two of those were O’Brien’s and while Cliffs of Moher was a shoulder, the others were all fetlocks, which is exactly where the fissures have shown up on the ct scans that JB is showing. Two legs as well don’t forget - this isn’t just one leg that could be compromised. All of these checks came in after AVD broke his fetlock - and there have been no fatalities in the race since. Everyone goes through the same checks and there’s an international panel of vets who look at them, it’s not just one person.

Nobody’s saying that they sent a horse with issues over - their MRI scans quite feasibly wouldn’t have shown anything starting. BUT this horse has travelled thousands of miles, is training in a totally different way to what he’s used to because of the nature of Werribee, he’s still working and existing ( and anyone with half an ounce of horse knowledge knows about the thoroughbred ‘s propensity for injuring themselves in many and varied ways) and he’s still growing.
Throw in a CT scan which is much more intense than MRI and it’s no great surprise there’s stuff going on. It’s no conspiracy against the overseas horses - at least one Australian horse has been spun after the scan as well, they won’t let anything run there if they are so much as suspicious something could go wrong. They withdraw at the start of races if there’s so much as a bang in the stalls ( usually it’s the one I’ve picked !) they just don’t want the bad press anywhere, but especially spring carnival.

If I was the connections, would I be pissed? Absolutely. Would I be glad he’s not being risked, can go on and race in places that they don’t worry about things so much and hopefully have a stud career after? Yes. Though I wouldn’t be entering him up before knowing for certain he’s as good as he’s able to be.
Click to expand...
Absolutely bang on here, Troods. I imagine its less about AOB and more about the "Lads" wanting to run and he's their voicebox. I'd be frustrated as a trainer, 100%. But the welfare of my horses would always, always come first.
 
My friend from Sydney is an accountant mainly for lawyers , Accountants and wealthy buisnessmen..all have bought 2 or 2 condos here.
It give them a reason to come here and get away from the wife. One guy based in Aus and Hong Kong owns a leg in s group horse won _100kAus the other day and he hardly batted an eyelid....but down to earth guys...anyway they will be there in the same bar in Sukumvit they have been going to for the last 20 years
 
Shout out to Brian Ellison.

I hope he brings the trophy back to geordieland.

In terms of big runners in big races this must be the highlight of his career, no?

Sea King could go well aswell.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top