Mcevoy would never be a negative for me, but i still think this is an odd thread
stick by original comments that its an overrated factor but if taking it seriously surely jockeys have strengths and weaknesses which suit or dont suit particulr horses/courses/races?
stick by original comments that its an overrated factor but if taking it seriously surely jockeys have strengths and weaknesses which suit or dont suit particulr horses/courses/races?
davidjohnson
At the Start
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McEvoy would be an excellent rider to employ as stable jockey, but I could think of plenty I'd rather have on side if the giro is down!
It's a thread which we seem to have annually
And yes I agree with your point about 'jocks for horses'But I don't think jockeyship is overrated at all as a pointer to a horse's winning chance.
In most races it can make the difference between winning and losing, as there is not that much to choose between the horses. A jockey can't necessarily win on a horse which doesn't have the talent to win that race - tho that's easier in NH than on the flat if only by staying upright! - but a jock can sure as hell *lose* a race on a horse which should have won. You see it every day - even the top jocks can manage that.
The jocks in whom we have the most confidence are ones we see making fewest mistakes, surely? - ie those who can both judge pace and are tactically astute; followed by those who are strong in a finish.
The ability to settle strong pullers is also a great gift which few jockeys have. Some of those on my list are excellent at it - they can ride a horse to sleep. Spencer is prime at that too, but with him that comes at a price. Maybe one's attitude to the importance of jockeyship is dependent on whether you've ever ridden a horse.
U
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Shadow Leader, Carberry is a showboater, and more often than not loses races because of his obsession with syle over substance.
He may be a good horseman, but that doesn't mean he is one to trust implicitly when the cash is down.
No mileage in reopening the Harchibald debate here, but suffice to say I am firmly in the camp which thinks McCoy would have won a Champion Hurdle on that horse (and probably a 2nd Xmas Hurdle in the renewal just gone). Carberry's arrogance stops him even trying to ride a different type of race on the horse just in case it might work!
He may be a good horseman, but that doesn't mean he is one to trust implicitly when the cash is down.
No mileage in reopening the Harchibald debate here, but suffice to say I am firmly in the camp which thinks McCoy would have won a Champion Hurdle on that horse (and probably a 2nd Xmas Hurdle in the renewal just gone). Carberry's arrogance stops him even trying to ride a different type of race on the horse just in case it might work!
Colin Phillips
At the Start
"It's a thread which we seem to have annually..................."
Heads, you've only been a member on here 18 months?????? shrug::
Heads, you've only been a member on here 18 months?????? shrug::
U
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I think he still showboated on him at Kempton instead of just throwing caution to the wind and having a right go at the beginning of the straight. Nothing to lose anymore.
He seems to ride longer these days so some of the bottle has gone after a long catalogue of injuries.
He seems to ride longer these days so some of the bottle has gone after a long catalogue of injuries.
Good post Headtrsong and agree with most of that. But im not sure theres as much between the top jockeys as sometimes imagined and the "mistakes" will tend to even themselves out
Still there is logic with some aspects to this. No suprise that dettori rides York so well given its favouristism towards runners that can stay at the front and his excellent judgement of pace
No suprise that Fallon rides Lingfield so badly given his.... ok ill stop there
Its maybe an angle i need to pay alittle more attention to, but its always going to be a limited factor for me
U
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At Kempton he was upsides two out, but did the usual sitting like a church mouse instead of kicking on and trying to see if the horse is capable of extending a lead early in the straight. At least if he tried it once and it failed we would all know for sure whether the ridiculous tactics he insists on employing are essential.
U
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Yes, perhaps, but having been beaten in this matter so often in Grade 1 Hurdles, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that maybe the time has come for a tactical change?
Oh, and as for Noel Meade knowing the relative worth/ability of his animals, didn't look like that with the uncontrollable hype he displayed re: Sweet Wake and Aran Concerto.
Oh, and as for Noel Meade knowing the relative worth/ability of his animals, didn't look like that with the uncontrollable hype he displayed re: Sweet Wake and Aran Concerto.
Harchibald couldnt challenge for a handicap at Cheltenham when they rode him positively. He got beat by Brave Inca at Punchestown when he went too early. He does not do anything when he hits the front. One sharp short burst and he comes to the end of his tether. So your incorrect to say they should try something different...they have and it failed. His better results have come since they have started to hold him up.
Aran Concerto disappointed once in England and he is proclaimed a failure. Why ignore his form in Ireland.
Clivex. I suggest you do your own research. Can you tell me any horse that has set the world alight in staying hurdles this year?
I have begun to use the P Carberry Harchibald as the acid test for punters. Anyone who thinks that a) Carberry was at fault for the Champion loss b) that McCoy or a tougher rider in the finish would have got him up to me is someone who is trying to learn the game, but doesnt really understand it and still has a way to go.
I have begun to use the P Carberry Harchibald as the acid test for punters. Anyone who thinks that a) Carberry was at fault for the Champion loss b) that McCoy or a tougher rider in the finish would have got him up to me is someone who is trying to learn the game, but doesnt really understand it and still has a way to go.
Good for u. I am sure everyone is grateful for your judgement, but Iwould address that elsewhere because i havent expressed an opinion on that one
For whats its worth, Carberry was perhaps at fault in the same way as Drogba might miss a difficult chance. You would hoped he could have timed it just right but it was always going to be a very hard call with that beast
Quite what that has to do with AC's form i dont know.
Staying Hurdlers? I think Inglis Drever has performed very nicely myself
I suggest you back up some of your more sneering comments :suspect:
U
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Gal, I think it is an absurd notion to say the county hurdle tactics had much bearing on the result, more likely the 20lb hike the handicapper gave him after his previous victory at Leopardstown.
The horse improved fast in the following season but the improvement can hardly be attributed to tactics. As fro the defeat for Brave Inca, if you are referring to the Emo Oil in 2005 Carberry did nothing he hadn't already done in sitting motionless for too long instead of going on and winning his race.
I cannot see how you can argue Harchibald has been given a fair chance of proving himself able to win a race before the final flight at Grade 1 level.
The horse improved fast in the following season but the improvement can hardly be attributed to tactics. As fro the defeat for Brave Inca, if you are referring to the Emo Oil in 2005 Carberry did nothing he hadn't already done in sitting motionless for too long instead of going on and winning his race.
I cannot see how you can argue Harchibald has been given a fair chance of proving himself able to win a race before the final flight at Grade 1 level.
It had nothing to do with AC form. What I found a classic Clivex moment was the rush to judgement regardless of form/evidence. If you want to knock the horse, give us some evidence, and not some half-baked notion, that you couldnt spare 2 minutes on the racing post site to check out.
The Aran Concerto form is working out well. Shame that we might never get to see how good he could have been. Just as with Nicanor.
The Carberry/harchibald thing was an aside that I thought I would share.
The Aran Concerto form is working out well. Shame that we might never get to see how good he could have been. Just as with Nicanor.
The Carberry/harchibald thing was an aside that I thought I would share.
Ah so your changing the boundaries again….now its not just try it but it has to be done in Grade 1 company.
The horse hit the front straight after the hurdle at the Christmas Hurdle…but he was flagging straight away. Do you not think the same thing is likely to happen (as it has already done so in the past) and be even worse if he hits the front earlier.
You say the horse improved a lot, I put a lot of that down to the fact they found how to ride the horse. In the County Hurdle Harchibald was running off 10-00. He did not get a 20lb hike for the County only got a 4lb penalty for his previous win. Horse was cantering all over them when he hit the front early….Carberry was looking around as he went on but the horse stopped and was losing ground all the way to the line.
Your grasping at straws to suggest they should ride him earlier.
U
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Gal, you know Harchibald was on a serious upward curve post County Hurdle, and it would be totally misleading to attribute this to the riding tactics.
I have rewatched the Xmas Hurdle again - and it was only after the final flight that Carberry got animated. All the way up the home straight he sat motionless, in particular between the last two hurdles. Here he should have boot the horse and given him a couple of smakes to see what happened. Straw Bear was under the cosh before two out - Carberry failed to exploit this.
It is not grasping at straws to state that the riding tactics adopted since the county hurdle may have resulted in victories at a far higher level, but equally they may be attributed to his defeats in a number of Grade 1 hurdles.
But as I said, Carberry's enormous ego will probably prevent us from ever knowing if a change in tactics work. After all, he knows that if he rode the horse handier, kicked on up the hill at Cheltenham and won, he would be admitting that he was totally b*llshitting when he defended his previous rides on the horse.
I notice you have conveniently ignored my point about the defeat by Brave Inca!
I have rewatched the Xmas Hurdle again - and it was only after the final flight that Carberry got animated. All the way up the home straight he sat motionless, in particular between the last two hurdles. Here he should have boot the horse and given him a couple of smakes to see what happened. Straw Bear was under the cosh before two out - Carberry failed to exploit this.
It is not grasping at straws to state that the riding tactics adopted since the county hurdle may have resulted in victories at a far higher level, but equally they may be attributed to his defeats in a number of Grade 1 hurdles.
But as I said, Carberry's enormous ego will probably prevent us from ever knowing if a change in tactics work. After all, he knows that if he rode the horse handier, kicked on up the hill at Cheltenham and won, he would be admitting that he was totally b*llshitting when he defended his previous rides on the horse.
I notice you have conveniently ignored my point about the defeat by Brave Inca!