Kauto Star

Would kauto star have won?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 46.7%

  • No

    Votes: 24 53.3%
  • Total voters
    45
redhead said:
To take on and beat the best around over any terrain, not with provisos of track, distance etc. His Gold Cup was the slowest-run for ages and also lacked a bit of class.

Sorry for the heresy guys, but he has just never got my pulse racing to either watch or rate.
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Which horses live up to that?
 
redhead said:
To take on and beat the best around over any terrain, not with provisos of track, distance etc.
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I actually find this astounding tbh. The horse has won two Tingle Creek's, two King George's and a Gold Cup. He goes on just about any ground. I just don't understand how you can say that.

Is Moscow Flyer not a "great" because he didn't win a Gold Cup by that definition?
 
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By Redhead's definition Moscow Flyer isn't a great as he coudln't do it at all distances and we haven't in fact had a great since Dessie and prior to that Flyingbolt (Arkle didn't win at all distances against the best so he's not a great either).
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's not (or hasn't been) a great horse. I still have slight doubts though over stamina on occasions when he is put to the sword. Not that that takes anything away from him - it's incredible really to think he can win Tingle Creeks, King Georges and a Gold Cup, nevermind in the same season!

Of course it is always possible that he is on the downgrade, after all he has been fairly busy. That said I wouldn't want to write him off yet, I'm sure he's quite capable of bouncing back and routing the field at Kempton.
 
Irish Stamp said:
By Redhead's definition Moscow Flyer isn't a great as he coudln't do it at all distances and we haven't in fact had a great since Dessie and prior to that Flyingbolt (Arkle didn't win at all distances against the best so he's not a great either).
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Please do not put words into my mouth or attribute thoughts to me that I have not had, much less expressed. I have said no such thing and have no intention of getting into a slanging match. The horse under discussion here is Kauto Star, no other. ​



That was just a rough outline of what I would look for as due to pressures of the NHS I didn’t have much time to reply in full to Gareth’s polite enquiry as to my views (don’t get a lunch break).​



I don't dispute that Kauto Star showed some amazing versatility re distance and ground but what did he beat? If I recall, many of his wins occurred at a time that many people were bewailing the lack of strength in the chasing division. ​



If the quality of opposition was not that good, how does that make him a great horse, when it seems more likely that he was the only genuine Grade 1 horse around, beating Grade 2 and 3 horses because of the lack of class in that particular batch of chasers?​



His 2 Tingle Creek wins were over Ashley Brook and Voy Por Ustedes and from what I have read on this forum the majority of contributors don't rate either horse that highly, which makes the benchmark somewhat questionable - to my view anyway. Either that, or some are going to have to revise their opinions of the pair that he beat in order to fit the foot to the shoe.​



With opposition like that and the horses he beat in the Gold Cup, I just cannot see what the fuss is about. ​


Sorry guys, I remain an unrepentant heretic!
 
Shadow Leader said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's not (or hasn't been) a great horse. I still have slight doubts though over stamina on occasions when he is put to the sword. Not that that takes anything away from him - it's incredible really to think he can win Tingle Creeks, King Georges and a Gold Cup, nevermind in the same season!

Of course it is always possible that he is on the downgrade, after all he has been fairly busy. That said I wouldn't want to write him off yet, I'm sure he's quite capable of bouncing back and routing the field at Kempton.
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On form, the likes of Snoopy Loopy and Tamarinbleu shouldn't be putting him to the test, much less the sword, Shads.

The idea that he is in decline is an interesting one - the theory that French horses peak earlier has been talked about a good deal recently - though I'm not sure I subscribe to it tbh.

I wasn't havig a go at you BTW, redhead; merely pointing out that your criteria for defining a "great" horse is rather lofty!
 
trackside528 said:
I wasn't havig a go at you BTW, redhead; merely pointing out that your criteria for defining a "great" horse is rather lofty!
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No offence taken Trackside, its just that the standards set by the true greats are rather lofty, which is why they are so rare.

I agree with Shadow's point about a decline at 8 years-old. I have kept records for the past 20 years and it was a noticeable trend amongst the French-bred horses as long as 10 years ago, although it has only been brought to the attention of a wider audience over the last 5 years or so.
 
redhead said:
To take on and beat the best around over any terrain, not with provisos of track, distance etc. His Gold Cup was the slowest-run for ages and also lacked a bit of class.
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It's hardly putting words in your mouth when you say they need to beat the best over any terrain regardless of track and distance.
 
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