Kauto Star

Would kauto star have won?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 46.7%

  • No

    Votes: 24 53.3%
  • Total voters
    45
martin said:
I'm with g-g, I thought although he was travelling like the winner, his jump at the second last was him shouting "i'm not liking this", and even if he had of won I'm not convinced it would have been by a wide margin.

I wouldn't want to be lumping on at 6/4 for the KG either, as from what I saw today he couldn't break out of fourth gear. If Denman is still 5/4 when he comes back in Febuary i'd think that would be a much better "banker" for the GC!

This was the first year I decided it would be "perverse" to leave Kauto out of my tentofollow aswell, as i'm usually a left of centre thinker who likes to do the opposite to everyone else!
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I don't think he was travelling like the winner AFTER he hit the fence. I think it knocked him for six, and Thomas didn't help one bit after that. There was a point down the back straight I think where you can see Thomas saying 'whoa' to him on the replay which probably indicates how well he was going at that point. I think he would have won if he hadn't hit the fence. I think he could have won if Thomas had got hold of him before the second last. I think if he had stayed up, he wouldn't have won the way he was being ridden at that point.
 
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hey everyone, im a virgin on these pages so treat me gentle.
just got back from haydock and watched the race over a few times was it me or was kauto never really travelling aswell as he does?
 
Shadow Leader said:
Crikey, you don't half read some bollocks on these forums.

Kauto Star was put on the ground by Thomas riding like a tosser.
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Kauto Star jumped the fence fine, just knuckled over on landing. Thomas might well have had an influence on the horse jumping the previous fence (where he made a mistake) but the horse jumped the last fence alright just his landing gear let him down.
 
Welcome to the forum Native Dancer - I thought he was travelling fine until he came into the home straight but they didn't seem to go a great pace which wouldn't be ideal for him.
 
Sam Thomas was trying to finesse his way through the field coming up the straight, presumably because his horse was finding things harder than usual (yes, Native Dancer, I agree with you. Unfortunately for him he made a balls of it. Allowing his horse to clout the upright of the second last was shocking.

After that there was no way Kauto was going to win. Had he survived the last I douibt he would have overhauled Tamarinbleu, even with the sort of wrenching effort that he put up in defeat in the Gold Cup, and I thing Snoopy Loopy (awful name) would have won anyway.
 
Allowing his horse to clout the upright of the second last was shocking.
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I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention. I'm not seeing things am I? It's not like Kauto suddenly jinked or swerved towards the rail?
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Welcome to the forum Native Dancer - I thought he was travelling fine until he came into the home straight but they didn't seem to go a great pace which wouldn't be ideal for him.
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The lack of pace may not have been ideal for Kauto Star, but it was almost certainly far more of a hindrance for Exotic dancer; despite his poor round of jumping, I would go so far as to state Exotic Dancer would probably have won today had there been a solid gallop throughout.
 
Gal, it was entirely rider error. He came into the fence - for some reason known only to him - on buckle end and with his reins flapping like washing lines. He gave the horse no assistance whatsoever whereas if he had a hold on his head he could have balanced him and helped hold him together through the blunder - you can see the horse looks to re-balance against Thomas' hold on the reins but since there was no contact there whatsoever he had no chance and blundered further.

I watched the re-run about four times and it was crystal clear that this was the case. Several people agreed with me - except Goober, who on saying so was told by someone else "no, she's right" and then said a few hours afterwards that he had re-watched it and yes, he did now agree.

It was a lack of horsemanship and careless/lackadaisical riding which is not a lot more than I have come to expect from Thomas nowadays, especially over obstacles.
 
Why have I been brought into this ?

Like the hapless Thomas I was "careless/lackadaisical" in automatically disagreeing with Shadow Leader, something which usually pays off as you can be right without trying very hard. My mitigating circumstances are that I was walking along the course at Ascot minding my own business before being hollered at like a foghorn from the running rails by someone who should have been working or at least behaving with dignity.

I can confirm however that I did agree later on. Thomas did not cause the blunder but his lack of contact meant he could not help the horse when his head went down. This is a Richard Johnson trait, the one from whom Thomas appears to learnt everything, "yeah , no , obviously, basically, y'know"

Watching the race live I thought Kauto Star was feeling something from the turn in and only keeping going through guts. I think he would have been a marginal winner had he stood up.
 
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uncle goober said:
Why have I been brought into this ?

Like the hapless Thomas I was "careless/lackadaisical" in automatically disagreeing with Shadow Leader, something which usually pays off as you can be right without trying very hard. My mitigating circumstances are that I was walking along the course at Ascot minding my own business before be hollered at like a foghorn from the running rails by someone who should have been working or at least behaving with dignity.

I can confirm however that I did agree later on. Thomas did not cause the blunder but his lack of contact meant he could not help the horse when his head went down. This is a Richard Johnson trait, the one from whom Thomas appears to learnt everything, "yeah , no , obviously, basically, y'know"
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He could have done better to stay on the horse but when the horses head went down that alone would have cost him any chance of winning the race.
 
SL's point Gal is that the head going down may have been prevented if Thomas had contact.

A clumsy horse can fall over even whilst walking, not very often admittedly but it happens and can be nasty as it will often be on an unforgiving surface such as a road or track. The rider involved would most likely have been quite happily walking along chatting away to the next rider with no contact, horse tripped, head went down, horse falls over, quick as that. Rider keeping a contact will have reacted quick enough to support the horse as it tripped, allowing it a second to find a leg and not fall.
 
uncle goober said:
SL's point Gal is that the head going down may have been prevented if Thomas had contact.

A clumsy horse can fall over even whilst walking, not very often admittedly but it happens and can be nasty as it will often be on an unforgiving surface such as a road or track. The rider involved would most likely have been quite happily walking along chatting away to the next rider with no contact, horse tripped, head went down, horse falls over, quick as that. Rider keeping a contact will have reacted quick enough to support the horse as it tripped, allowing it a second to find a leg and not fall.
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Literally just seen it again, the horse needed a big jump at the last to get back into contention. Thomas asked him for a big one (thus loosing the rein) - he jumped it fine but just slipped on landing. Granted if Thomas had better contact he might have held him together better but he needed that big jump at the last to get back into contention.

Looking at it again the horse was off the bridle before he banked the earlier fence. I thought it was when he banked the third fence that he came off the bridle but he was off it before then. Has to be question marks about the horse now again.
 
firstpastthepost said:
lol nicholls didn't look happy with "people are doubting kauto is at his best"
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While I take his point, in general his horses have got plenty of credit (and indeed has the trainer) for what they have achieved/done. It would be a shame if he took personal insult every time questions are simply asked of some of is top performers.
 
From RP

He is absolutely fine," said Nicholls."My head lad Clifford Baker led him out this morning and said he was 100 per cent fine but just a little bit sore around the hind-quarters, which is not surprising when you look at the picture of him on the front page of the Racing Post. He will nowhave a little physio and be given an easy two weeks before we tune him up for the KingGeorge."
Nicholls added: "It was very difficult for Sam, as he had only ridden the horse once before. Denman is a more straightforward horse and he faced an incredibly hard job on Kauto. Ruby knows the horse well and he'll hopefully be backfor the King George."
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Watched the race in a box in Haydock with people who would know their stuff about riding horse....

They would be broadly in agreement with Shadow's point of view, if not emphatically so...
 
Think he would have finished third, why did Thomas unsettle the horse going to the last ditch?
Who thinks he will he ride the horse again in the near future?
 
Dante said:
Think he would have finished third, why did Thomas unsettle the horse going to the last ditch?
Who thinks he will he ride the horse again in the near future?
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Listening to the Nicholls interview and then the views on here....I think this has cleared up which horse Walsh (Denman and Kauto) will be riding in March regardless of the form shown in the mean time assuming both turn up.
 
Calling it 'bullshit' when asked is KS past it is a bit sensitive, no?

Not sure what will make him run better in the KG when he'll be facing horses a lot more talented than Snoopy Loopy and Tamarinbleu.
 
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