Kauto Star

There's a lot to unpack here.

1. Arkle's race, the Gallaher Gold Cup (correct spelling) was the shorter race by listed distance according to the Racing Post.

2. However it was run from the same starting point as the Gainsborough (Agfa Diamond from 91-07) as far as I can tell. The time to the first fence is very similar for both races (Tanlic must be referring to a video that omits the first circuit) as can be seen in the linked videos. I have done some sleuthing and it seems the RP have added the exact distance to Arkle's race in line with the current listed distance for the 3m chase course at Sandown. The distance is listed as 3m118y on the live broadcast (later 3m110y or 3m1/2f in the 90's) for Desert Orchid but it's the same starting point.

The distance is also listed as 3m118y for the 1965 Gainsborough Chase: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sandown-12th-february-1965-mill-house-1776002927

3. There are definitely jump cuts in the 1965 youtube video. It seems that the BBC had O'Sullevan commentate over recorded footage (Sandown wasn't a BBC track at that time, so wasn't live on the channel). They must only have had raw footage from several cameras and attempted to splice them together after reports of Arkle's feat. Whether they cut sections out in error or for brevity it doesn't particularly matter; I doubt people had stop watches going at home while they were watching. It was thrashing Mill House while giving a lot of weight that made the performance so impressive.

Any sectionals can only be done when Arkle's race has a continuous camera shot; so not much can really be achieved, but the starting point can be established.

https://youtu.be/tamkrqCAegs?t=45

This can be compared to Desert Orchid in 1987 https://youtu.be/jaeJKmJXI-Y?t=30 and the 1967 Whitbread https://youtu.be/FrDRq0QZfvI?t=82 (note the wooden tower).

Small aside 1: One fence is omitted in the 1965 race from the footage (the second).

Small aside 2: All the railway fences are shown, you can pause at 1:39 and 4:40 to see the first of them with a parked car visible in the background. It's unclear if only the last two are classified as railway fences by O'Sullevan (as may have been the standard at the time) as he actually misidentifies them on the second circuit (as-live commentary over recorded footage with parts missing obviously isn't easy).

Small aside 3: The fences, although in the same place, were noticeably different in structure between the 60's and 80's (a lot easier to jump in Arkle's day).

As far as breaking the course record by 17 seconds I haven't been able to find any context or evidence other than it was set by Mill House in 1964 (I can't even find the actual time or the current course record). The Gallaher Gold Cup was a very new race so it is plausible that on fast early November ground, aided by an end to end gallop and with few 3m chases previously run outside of the depth of winter at Sandown that this was more or less true. Or perhaps that it was simply 17 seconds faster than Mill House's win in the 1964 edition.

Someone with more knowledge and our resources may be able to assist with figuring it out exactly.
 
ep1987 said:
As far as breaking the course record by 17 seconds I haven't been able to find any context or evidence other than it was set by Mill House in 1964 (I can't even find the actual time or the current course record). The Gallaher Gold Cup was a very new race so it is plausible that on fast early November ground, aided by an end to end gallop and with few 3m chases previously run outside of the depth of winter at Sandown that this was more or less true. Or perhaps that it was simply 17 seconds faster than Mill House's win in the 1964 edition.
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Nevertheless, it is/was a record that either still stands or was only bettered recently (but not to my knowledge). Not many records stand for that kind of duration.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Lovely dedication to make it a book to treasure.
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I waxed so lyrical about Sea the Stars that he actually sent me a copy of his book about him, the inscription this time being ‘as promised’. Lovely chap: never dreamt he’d do it! I guess we Arkle lovers share a common bond even if I did come late to the party…..
 
Desert Orchid said:
Nevertheless, it is/was a record that either still stands or was only bettered recently (but not to my knowledge). Not many records stand for that kind of duration.
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And not sure how many carried 12st 7lbs in trying to do so.
 
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ep1987 said:
There's a lot to unpack here.

1. Arkle's race, the Gallaher Gold Cup (correct spelling) was the shorter race by listed distance according to the Racing Post.

2. However it was run from the same starting point as the Gainsborough (Agfa Diamond from 91-07) as far as I can tell. The time to the first fence is very similar for both races (Tanlic must be referring to a video that omits the first circuit) as can be seen in the linked videos. I have done some sleuthing and it seems the RP have added the exact distance to Arkle's race in line with the current listed distance for the 3m chase course at Sandown. The distance is listed as 3m118y on the live broadcast (later 3m110y or 3m1/2f in the 90's) for Desert Orchid but it's the same starting point.

The distance is also listed as 3m118y for the 1965 Gainsborough Chase: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sandown-12th-february-1965-mill-house-1776002927

3. There are definitely jump cuts in the 1965 youtube video. It seems that the BBC had O'Sullevan commentate over recorded footage (Sandown wasn't a BBC track at that time, so wasn't live on the channel). They must only have had raw footage from several cameras and attempted to splice them together after reports of Arkle's feat. Whether they cut sections out in error or for brevity it doesn't particularly matter; I doubt people had stop watches going at home while they were watching. It was thrashing Mill House while giving a lot of weight that made the performance so impressive.

Any sectionals can only be done when Arkle's race has a continuous camera shot; so not much can really be achieved, but the starting point can be established.

https://youtu.be/tamkrqCAegs?t=45

This can be compared to Desert Orchid in 1987 https://youtu.be/jaeJKmJXI-Y?t=30 and the 1967 Whitbread https://youtu.be/FrDRq0QZfvI?t=82 (note the wooden tower).

Small aside 1: One fence is omitted in the 1965 race from the footage (the second).

Small aside 2: All the railway fences are shown, you can pause at 1:39 and 4:40 to see the first of them with a parked car visible in the background. It's unclear if only the last two are classified as railway fences by O'Sullevan (as may have been the standard at the time) as he actually misidentifies them on the second circuit (as-live commentary over recorded footage with parts missing obviously isn't easy).

Small aside 3: The fences, although in the same place, were noticeably different in structure between the 60's and 80's (a lot easier to jump in Arkle's day).

As far as breaking the course record by 17 seconds I haven't been able to find any context or evidence other than it was set by Mill House in 1964 (I can't even find the actual time or the current course record). The Gallaher Gold Cup was a very new race so it is plausible that on fast early November ground, aided by an end to end gallop and with few 3m chases previously run outside of the depth of winter at Sandown that this was more or less true. Or perhaps that it was simply 17 seconds faster than Mill House's win in the 1964 edition.

Someone with more knowledge and our resources may be able to assist with figuring it out exactly.
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What I did was started both races from the first fence which was still in the same place. The Gallacher was actually run over 3m and 7yds according to the racecard which I saw when it was for sale.

For the most part there is very little difference in how long it took to go from one fence to the other except for when thing were obviously omitted.

You dont have to be a genius to notice the 40 second difference getting to the first or to notice 16 seconds are missing from the second fence or that Mill House only jums 2 Railway fences in the you tube video.

I then added all the sectional times between each fence for both horses and added the missing times as if both horses were running over exactly the same distance which were 40 seconds 15 seconds and 17 seconds.

Dessie comes out 1 second faster than Arkle but Arkle carried 7lbs more which means Arkle's time was better.

To be honest I don't know how much distance 7lbs less would have affected Arkle that day. I'll leave that to the real experts.
 
Tanlic said:
What I did was started both races from the first fence which was still in the same place. The Gallacher was actually run over 3m and 7yds according to the racecard which I saw when it was for sale.

For the most part there is very little difference in how long it took to go from one fence to the other except for when thing were obviously omitted.

You dont have to be a genius to notice the 40 second difference getting to the first or to notice 16 seconds are missing from the second fence or that Mill House only jums 2 Railway fences in the you tube video.

I then added all the sectional times between each fence for both horses and added the missing times as if both horses were running over exactly the same distance which were 40 seconds 15 seconds and 17 seconds.

Dessie comes out 1 second faster than Arkle but Arkle carried 7lbs more which means Arkle's time was better.

To be honest I don't know how much distance 7lbs less would have affected Arkle that day. I'll leave that to the real experts.
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Once more for clarity; every time the camera angle changes in Arkle's race there is a continuity problem. There are also slight rail variations.

Each race started from the same point.

Yes you can time the differences between fences where there was a change of camera angle to try and work out how much has been cut but it will be pretty inexact and you can't account for them running at different speeds.

One fence is omitted in the footage from Arkle's race, the 2nd. I'm willing to bet however much you want on this.

Arkle 'completed' in 5m20s, Desert Orchid in 6m12s.

A quick evaluation of the jump cuts:

Fences 1-3 Arkle was 17s 'faster'.

Last of the railway fences to where they cross what I presume is the flat course Arkle was 8s 'faster'.

Final fence on the first circuit to the first on the second circuit Arkle was 12s 'faster' (3 camera changes, I think we lost 1.5s, then nothing on the first two and am fairly confident the actual times from the last to the turn past the car park were fairly similar).

Inconsequential camera change in between the first two down the back.

Last of the railway fences to where they cross the flat course Arkle was 2s 'faster' second time around but mostly this seems to be due to him travelling faster as the cut in the footage seems pretty small (generously we'll say we lost 1s, but in reality it's probably more like 0.5s).

The last camera change is also inconsequential so that puts the total footage lost at approximately 38s and gives a finishing time for Arkle of 5m58s. This is 7s faster than standard carrying 12st7. This also assumes that the two horses were travelling at the same speed in the missing sections which I doubt; a quick 'standardisation' gives Arkle another 1.5s (and a finishing time of 5m56s if we give him the 0.5s he likely deserves from after the last of the railway fences) .

So Arkle completed the course in a very approximate average of 30.5mph as compared to the standard of 29.8mph which is certainly feasible is the ground was quick (listed as good to firm on RP for what it's worth).

As far as the record still being unbroken; pretty sure we need an actual time for Arkle to establish this. Plus even if it was true how many good 3m chases have been run on quick ground on Sandown so we can compare (before we even start talking about rail variations, the course being re-laid, fences being slightly different in construction)? Supposedly the 2m hurdle on the same day was run 20 seconds quicker than the standard of the day (see comment by pmt here: https://community.betfair.com/horse...26119057/timeform-on-kauto-v-arkle?liveView=0).

ps. Arkle was amazing, but to have broken the course record by 17s then it would have had to stood at about 8s slower than the current standard. Also let's not forget that it would mean Rondetto finished 11 seconds quicker than the course record that day.
 
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ep1987 said:
Once more for clarity; every time the camera angle changes in Arkle's race there is a continuity problem. There are also slight rail variations.

Most of what you say I agree with but I'll have 1million pounds on that the 2nd fence is not omitted. I don't take cheques?:lol:

In both film/videos they are seen jumping fences 1 2 3 4 5 and number 6 which is the first of the railway fences

Peter O'sullivan actually says as they jump the second in the Arkle film........don't worry I know if you don't pay me God will:lol:
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1:39 and 4:40 in Arkle's races for the first of what we now call the railway fences (although it seems that previously only the last two were named as such). You can see the parked car in the background. They then jump 2 more each time before making the turn.

Also it seems the commentary was actually added years later after O'Sullevan had retired.

As far as the second fence I can prove that several different ways. Easiest is that the third fence shown on the first circuit is at 1:11 and on the second circuit is at 4:04. These are clearly not the same obstacle; see the fourth fence shown on the second circuit at 4:12 instead (crowd before fence, the hurdle in the foreground after the fence, the railings, the parked bus).
 
moe said:
I waxed so lyrical about Sea the Stars that he actually sent me a copy of his book about him, the inscription this time being ‘as promised’. Lovely chap: never dreamt he’d do it! I guess we Arkle lovers share a common bond even if I did come late to the party…..
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Endless droning on about Arkle I can just about handle, but I absolutely draw the line at mention of Sea The Stars, moe! :)

There's a reason why Phil Smith gave up trying to rate Arkle, and it's represented fully in the last 4-5 pages of this thread.
 
In the pantheon of great horses one is forgotten ; the Gold Cup winner that met and beat a future Cheltenham Gold Cup winner 3l when giving 21 pounds.
Given the future GC winner was Burrough Hill Lad Silver Buck should be on everyone's list of the all time great steeplechasers.
 
Silver Buck was a cracking horse but in a different era to Burroughill Lad

They met a couple of time Silver Buck beat him at Haydock but I think he would have been about 6years old

Silver Buck was no match for him in the Gainsborough Chase

No disrespect to Silver Buck but I have Burroughill Lad right up there with some of the best I ever saw.
 
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