Kauto Star

It took me a while to forgive Arkle for destroying Mill House but by the end of his career it was obvious that he was special. And didn't he know it, his body language as he came out on the track said : "Alright, all you people he came to see me, here I am and aren't you lucky". A magnificent racehorse, way beyond ratings.
 
Yeah. Even good judges can get emotionally involved.

Complaining that Arkle beat slow old boats when Best Mate beats Sir Rembrandt and Harbour Pilot....
 
Euronymous said:
Well, all British handicap chasers are at least ten pounds too high - the main reason the Irish win all the handicaps at the Festival.

So that puts SC on 151.
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I don't buy into that, Euro. About 20 years ago they started artificially inflating the ratings because the evidence was that 'slippage' (ie horses were being rated lower than they should be) was occurring and all sorts of algorithms are now used to ensure ratings remain largely on a par year on year.

I think there are other reasons for the Irish dominating the handicaps at Cheltenham but that's probably for another thread.
 
Desert Orchid said:
There's a brilliant B/W film of Sea Bird's Arc. When he starts his move down the outside it's almost as though he running along on an airport walker next to people not using it. He seems to take just two strides to all the others' three.
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Willie Shoemaker rode Tom Rolfe (I think) in that race and was quoted as saying that Sa Bird was cruising behind him with Pat Glennon trying to restrain him with a "double nelson ". Anyways Willie decided he had better get out of his way before the horse galloped over him !
As I was less than one week old at the time I cannot say I remember it.
 
Think the issue with the Stalbridge Colonist argument is that relying on the shorthand that 'he placed in the next two Gold Cups' has been used as the rationale for Arkle's 212 rating. He could have been a The Giant Bolster. It does suggest that Arkle would have won the next two Gold Cups by 30l. It needs a more scientific answer. It's like when pundits say that he was so brilliant that the handicap rules had to change for him. a) the new handicap system made far greater sense b) if it wasn't done for Arkle, it would have to have been done for Flyingbolt.

I don't know why Phil Smith stopped the effort to reevaluate the ratings.

Anyway, I think if you were ask connections, pundits or handicappers, all would agree that Kauto's optimal distance was at 2m+. Its likely Arkle would have been the best 2m chaser anyone ever rode had he contested a Champion Chase.
 
Frankel said:
Yup
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I’m not sure it is.

If we use The Giant Bolster as the comparison (the Stalbridge Colonist equivalent), he ran his best races in the Gold Cup earning an RPR of 164. If Arkle beats the comparison to Stalbridge Colonist by 37 lengths, do we award Arkle a 200+ rating.
 
164 for The Giant Bolster is way too high. Chase marks both official and RPR have been going up for years. I don't think it's a valid comparison. Plus the horse population in the 60s was nowhere near what it's been for the last couple of decades. Making it more likely that the odd early 150s animal could luck into a Gold Cup place
 
HawkWing said:
Yeah. Even good judges can get emotionally involved.

Complaining that Arkle beat slow old boats when Best Mate beats Sir Rembrandt and Harbour Pilot....
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I don't think Best Mate deserves to be spoken about in the same breath as Arkle but his trainer does.

Peter O'Sullivan called Arkle a freak and he was. He was a sportscar among pickups. The freak was he inherited brilliant speed from Nearco his grandfather who was never defeated.

Most 3 mile chasers were old slow boats. Horses like Brasher, Ferry Boat, Snaigo, Rough Tweed, Height 'o' Fashion

Mill House aside the best Horse to beat Arkle was without a doubt Buona Notte who was getting only 26 lbs off him in the Massey Ferguson.

Absolutely canter all over them going to the last he walked right through the fence but still mage to finish 2nd.

Considering his only chases before that race were novices he would surely have improved a stone or more had he not been killed in his very next race.

Buona Notte won the Supreme Hurdle and was unbeaten over fences as a novice chaser including defeating the brilliant Dunkirk.

Bob Turnell was adamant he would have been a much better horse over 3 miles and Johnny Haine said he was the best horse he ever rode.

One has to wonder what would have happened had he met Arkle again ???

It's weird how the historians make a big issue out off him giving 35lbs to Stalbridge but they barely mention him being defeated giving 26lbs to Buonna Notte which would have been 5 lengths instead of a length had he jumped the last.

They are quick to say Arkle had run a week or so before but fail to mention it was Buona Notte's first race of the season and his first senior chase.

Never forget the media's job is to sell racing and the easiest was is to promote something that is hard to dispute
 
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I reckon PN summed it up well. "There can't have been much between them and I have my opinion and others have theirs" or at least something along those lines
 
Tanlic said:
They are quick to say Arkle had run a week or so before but fail to mention it was Buona Notte's first race of the season and his first senior chase.
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In fairness, sounds like a mitigating circumstance, and the fact that it was over 2m5f, and he walked through the last....
Good to hear about Buono Notte.
 
What annoyed me at the time and still does to this day was them using the trip of 2m5f round the stiffest track in the country as an excuse.
Arkle won 10 races at 2m4f or less and a year before the Massey Ferguson won a 1m6f flat race at Navan.

What made Arkle different he had speed to burn compared to horses like Mill House, What A Myth and Stalbridge Colonist who were out and out stayers.

Getting back to Kauto Star I would be in Arkle's camp but by no more than 5lbs...what on earth Flyingbolt is doing up there alongside Arkle beats the hell out of me.

Flyuingbolt got his 210 rating based on his win over Height 'O' Fashion because she was also beaten by Arkle the year before so to their brilliant minds he must be as good.

No one mentions that Flyingbolt only won the grand total of 2 races at 3miles plus.

I doubt if he would have seen the way Sprinter Sacre went over 2 miles

If people looked at what horses actually achieved overall when rating them instead of using "What If" things would be different

Kauto Star would probably be the highest rated Chaser of all time Arkle 2nd Sprinter Sacre 3rd Desert Orchid 4th Flyingbolt 5th and Mill House who lost 17 of his 34 races among others like Burroughill Lad.
 
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Flyingbolt beat height ofashion giving 33lbs (iirc) 6 weeks after winning the QM and finishing 3rd in the champion hurdle. I'll be honest and say that I can't follow the logic in your posts.

"The ground at Cheltenham had been very heavy when we arrived, but by the time of the race unceasing rain had turned it into a sea of mud. For Flyingbolt, with twelve-stone-six to carry, you just couldn't imagine anything worse...I had Flyingbolt settled down nicely in the middle of the field, relaxed, jumping superbly and biding his time.... Then, as planned, I made my first move going up the hill at the far end of the course and Flyingbolt, unleashed and free, began to fly through the field.... At the top of the hill only Solbina and Scottish Memories were still in front. Flyingbolt went past and away from them, a man running against boys. Rounding the final bend, he was going so easily that he found time to jump a path across the course. He stormed up the hill, increasing the distance between him and his pursuers with every stride, to win by fifteen lengths from Solbina with Scottish Memories third. It was the manner of his victory, rather than the victory itself, that caused the furore. Men remembered that Scottish Memories had met Arkle twice in the previous season and stretched him on both occasions. In this selfsame race, the Massey-Ferguson, there had been thirty-three pounds and two lengths between them. And in the Leopardstown Chase, thirty-five pounds and one length. Now Flyingbolt had given him twenty-six pounds and left him sixteen and a half lengths behind. Didn't this prove that Flyingbolt was now every bit as good as his more illustrious stable-mate?" Pat Taaffe via Wikipedia
 
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Whoever is doing flyingbolt's Wikipedia entry is making a very cogent case for his greatness - if it was ever doubted.
 
I simply don't trust form that much. Did Height O Fashion run the same in both races or was she a slower horse a year on?

Here's a real query for you. The Gallacher Gold Cup video was tampered with an a large section taken out for some reason and the time of the race had been disputed but never given the publicity the investigation deserves,

I took the time to check out some facts and they do make you wonder.

The Gallacher Gold Cup was run over 3 miles 118yds The Gainsburgh Chase on the same course was run over 3m 37yds,

Desert Orchid racing over 70yds less and was not hanging about took 17 seconds longer to get to the first of the railway fences on the first circuit of the Gallacher than Mill House did in the Gainsburgh.

That alone raises a few eyebrows

At the other end of the race Arkle took 41 seconds to get to the winning post from the Pond Fence almost exactly the same time as it took Desert Orchid twice.

Historians from the media will say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have sold racing for a living go check the video evidence yourselves:)
 
Why would you go to the bother? Again, what's your conclusion? Cos to me it's not clear. That Arkle wasnt good? that someone at a production company tampered with a video (which got a long time never had seen the light of day) to show arkle in a better light? Was it that they took issue with how desert orchid is viewed? Again, I don't see the logic.

It was clear from the post earlier that flyingbolt's rating wasn't just achieved through height o fashion.
 
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Colin Phillips said:
It took me a while to forgive Arkle for destroying Mill House but by the end of his career it was obvious that he was special. And didn't he know it, his body language as he came out on the track said : "Alright, all you people he came to see me, here I am and aren't you lucky". A magnificent racehorse, way beyond ratings.
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It took me decades to forgive him. As Sean Magee wrote in my Arkle book ‘To Mo, who never stopped loving Mill House but eventually forgave Arkle’. Crikey, digging out the book I’ve just found a Cheltenham racecard signed by Willie Robinson and Peter O’Sullevan, too. Wondered where that had gone!
 
Well it certainly wasn't by beating Solbino and Scottish Memories. I found out who wrote on Wikipedia it was none other than the infamous most biased Arkle and Flyingbolt fan on the planet.
He exaggerates almost everything he writes on Twitter re the horse such as "Scottish Memories made Arkle pull out all the stops" He did nothing of the sort plus Arkle was beaten by Flying Wild in one of those races.

Scottish Memories did with the Mackeson Gold Cup but 4 years beforehand at the age of 7. He got kicked into touch by Pawnbroker in the same race before he was easily beaten by Flyingbolt at the ripe old age of 11.

Dunkirk also ran in that race but as expected never went a yard after 2 miles leaving the unfancied Solbino a 8 to 10/1 to come in 2nd.

He then beat Flash Bulb in the 2 mile Champion Chase. Flash Bulb was a cracking horse along with Super Flash who ran in a lot of decent race.
I rate that as one of Flyingbolt's best performances.

He ran in Salmon Spray Champion Hurdle who actually won easily from the ever consistent Sempervivum again that was impressive

My own feeling is he was a top class 2 miler who never did enough to Justify being the highest rated chaser along with Arkle.

I reckon Sprinter Sacre would have won the Champion Hurdle had he gone that way and was a much classier animal overall.

He absolutely destroyed Sizing Europe who not only won a qmcc but was very very unlucky not to have won a Champion Hurdle himself when injuring his back with the race at his mercy.

So IMO Flyingbolt did get his rating mainly because of Height O Fashion which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

example how many different Kauto Star's did we see at Haydock. Exotic Dancer 1/2 length Snoopy Loopy right up there with him when he fell anose win over Imperial Commander then an 8 length win over Long Run

My point is he was never the same horse twice so who do we accept that Height O Fashion was?

As far as the Gallacher Gold Cup goes I cant find out what was the time Arkle knocked 17 seconds off.

I got curious so I did the sectional for ever fence and 4 things stuck out.

1. There are virtually no changes to the Steeplechase Course where the Gallacher Gold Cup (Arkle) and the Gainsborough (Desert Orchid) were run

2. The Gallacher Gold Cup was run at a shorter distance than the one advertised there is no doubt about that. It took 10 seconds for Mill House to get to the 1st Jump in the Gallacher
It took Dessie 51 seconds in the Gainsborough.....check for yourself.

3.In the Gallacher coming to the second the camera angle changes the video is cut and it takes only 6 seconds to reach from the first. In Dessie's race it takes 21 seconds to reach the same point

4. Then in the Gallagher Gold Cup the 3rd railway fence is cut out cutting approx 17 seconds off the time.

Taking everything into consideration Dessie comes out 1 second faster but don't take my word for it do the sectionals.

The reason Arkle still holds the track record is the same was never run at the same trip again plus it was moved to February and renamed.

I have no doubt if Mill House held the record it was he won the Gainsburgh which may at that time have been very slow.

Mill House won it at long odds on from horses I had never heard of so I assume the time wasn't great if he just cantered round.

I'm not trying to take away anything from Arkle he was the best I have ever seen but I just don't believe everything the media say.

They are no different than any other Fake News.

Go check the Arkle story on Timeform or the Article written by the Guardian not one of them mention any of the above nor do they say what time Arkle actually recorded.

There job is to sell stories and racing even if they are fairy stories.

Why have Timeform never questioned Arkle's rating or Flyingbolts.

What and stop all the debates and the interest,,,,,,,,,,no way Jose
 
Tanlic said:
So IMO Flyingbolt did get his rating mainly because of Height O Fashion which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

example how many different Kauto Star's did we see at Haydock. Exotic Dancer 1/2 length Snoopy Loopy right up there with him when he fell anose win over Imperial Commander then an 8 length win over Long Run

My point is he was never the same horse twice so who do we accept that Height O Fashion was?
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Why are you accepting that Height O Fashion was a better horse when racing Arkle in the Irish Grand National?

Why are you fixated on the time for the Gallagher Gold Cup, when a) there is plenty of poor horses with track records and b) those he beat ran the same course as him?

I still can't follow your arguments.
 
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BTW the record Mill House set he beat a 121 year old called Norwegian


I don't think I said she was a better mare when she was beaten by Arkle. I said cross referencing form like they did is a nonsense to give Flyingbolt a crazy rating like they did.

The race was hailed as Arkle's greatest performance. I totally disagree with that. Mill House stopped like shot a long way from home and Rondetto was making ground on him at the same rate Arkle was,

The truth is he beat Rondetto and Mill House ran a stinker. In the Whitbread Mill House had Rondetto over 20 lengths behind. That's how far below form he ran that day.

For me I reckon Arkle's best performance came early on when he defeated Mill House at his very best by 5 lengths and Mill House was never the same horse again when he met Arkle.

Mill House looked Certain to win another Gold cup but fell twice in the race and both were desperate affairs.

That said Mill House was beaten (17 of 34) that's way too many times to justify a rating the same as Kauto Star

With Arkle and Mill House gone there was nothing worthy of being called a Champion until L'Escargot came along followed by Pendil.

I am not knocking Arkle I am knocking the media for not telling the whole story because the truth doesn't sell as well as fairy stories do.
 
Don’t know why Dreaper kept them apart - maybe he thought they’d kill each other trying because he certainly thought that Flyingbolt was a least Arkle’s equal and the better horse over shorter. I think it’s a waste of time trying to judge relatively merits through horses they beat since both treated the opposition with disdain and there’s no telling how much they could have won by and I doubt if the opposition made any serious effort to compete. “Normal” form analysis wouldn’t apply I guess.
 
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