Kauto Star

G-G said:
Maybe but that's an issue with ratings. Kauto would have eaten Douvan for breakfast.
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Over 2 miles there’s not a single piece of form that would back that up.

Difficult to compare different generations but beating an (what proved to be weak) Arkle winner who was conceding match fitness was the only seriously impressive performance he put in over the minimum trip
 
G-G said:
Maybe but that's an issue with ratings. Kauto would have eaten Douvan for breakfast.
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I doubt you would be saying that if Kauto's career had ended before he ran over 3 miles. I doubt if any 2 mile chaser in history would have eaten him for breakfast. Sprinter Sacre was reknowned for kicking 4out and leaving the opposition standing like he did in his Arkle. Try running his Arkle side by side with Douvans from 4out
and take into consideration the ground was much slower when Douvan won and it will shock you how much quicker Douvan was..distance wise he would have beaten Sprinter by at least 5 lengths on that basis. The following season Douvan went to leapordstown and absolutely anhilated future Gold Cup winner Sizing John and was given the highest Timeform rating of any horse WPMullins ever trained. I think at 2 miles there's a distinct possibility Kauto Star as much as I loved the horse might have been the one getting eaten at that stage of his career. I never sàw or heard this interview with Ruby but I can't believe he was referring to Kauto as a 2 miler as his form simply does not justify such a statement.
 
Feelings can't be related to ratings (imo) and both PN and WM used to rely implicity on Ruby's feelings about how much horse he had under him, and I'd trust his judgement over any rating's arithmetic.
Ruby rode Master Minded (2008) to one of the most impressive Champion Chase victories you're likely to witness but, if Ruby says Kauto's was better, I'm inclined to believe him.
 
reet hard said:
Feelings can't be related to ratings (imo) and both PN and WM used to rely implicity on Ruby's feelings about how much horse he had under him, and I'd trust his judgement over any rating's arithmetic.
Ruby rode Master Minded (2008) to one of the most impressive Champion Chase victories you're likely to witness but, if Ruby says Kauto's was better, I'm inclined to believe him.
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I go along with that. We and the raters sit on the sidelines not the horse :)
 
barjon said:
I go along with that. We and the raters sit on the sidelines not the horse :)
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That's why we have betting markets. Give me a hard objective number over a subjective feeling any time.

Edit - don't forget the old adage about jockeys being the worst tipsters.
 
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Jockeys spend most of their careers talking out both sides of their mouths.

Whether Walsh thinks Kauto Star was the best 2-miler he ever sat on, isn’t really relevant. The formbook doesn’t lie, and as Lee and others have pointed-out, there isn’t a scrap of racecourse evidence to support Walsh’s theory.

If we start judging horses’ merits based on jockey statements, half of us will end up in the poor-house, and the other half will end-up in the mad-house.

Re Douvan, Sprinter in his pomp would have kicked him aside, like he did with all the rest of them. Douvan was a terrific racehorse, but injury prevented him from fulfilling his potential. We should leave it at that, and lament about what might have been; rather than indulge in misty-eyed whatifery/guesswork to boost his reputation beyond that of a genuine champion of a racehorse.
 
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One of the issues here is that horses on a certain day will run to a certain standard based on a number of factors, including ground, left handed, right handed, flat track, rolling track, bigger fences , smaller fences, opposition, fast pace, no pace... and so ratings are for one moment in time. Only. And that's the problem with saying X was better than Y and would beat A and so on. If there was any way someone could invent a time machine, and change their ages and every other factor needed, and there was a match race of the two of them at their prime in conditions they both liked as much as sci-fi possible, at his prime and any other 2 miler at their prime, Kauto would win, 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday, because ultimately it's a contest, and he was an Ali. Not his fault that his record may be slurried in some eyes because he beat more Bugners than Fraziers.
 
G-G said:
One of the issues here is that horses on a certain day will run to a certain standard based on a number of factors, including ground, left handed, right handed, flat track, rolling track, bigger fences , smaller fences, opposition, fast pace, no pace... and so ratings are for one moment in time. Only.
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Yes and no. And most ratings people accept this but when a horse runs approximately to the same level on various grounds, trips, topography, etc, then it's fair to assume the figure is pretty close to being a true evaluation.

Then there's the likes of Tenor Nivernais's wide margin win at Ascot in a ridiculous time.
 
G-G said:
One of the issues here is that horses on a certain day will run to a certain standard based on a number of factors, including ground, left handed, right handed, flat track, rolling track, bigger fences , smaller fences, opposition, fast pace, no pace... and so ratings are for one moment in time. Only. And that's the problem with saying X was better than Y and would beat A and so on. If there was any way someone could invent a time machine, and change their ages and every other factor needed, and there was a match race of the two of them at their prime in conditions they both liked as much as sci-fi possible, at his prime and any other 2 miler at their prime, Kauto would win, 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday, because ultimately it's a contest, and he was an Ali. Not his fault that his record may be slurried in some eyes because he beat more Bugners than Fraziers.
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I respectfully disagree with parts of this.

Ratings are of course not infallible, but they are at least an objective measure of merit…..and a better measure than a jockey’s opinion. It’s worth bearing in mind Ruby can only have an opinion about those horses he rode, and there are/were better 2m chasers than both Azertyioup and Master Minded.

To be perfectly honest, over 2m in any conditions, I would say a top-form Kauto Star would have had his arse served to him every time, by a top-form Moscow Flyer…..and he wouldn’t put a glove on a top-form Sprinter Sacre.

If KS is ‘an Ali’ then Moscow and Sprinter are Hagler and Hearns, and Kauto would be well out of his division taking-on either, imo.
 
reet hard said:
Feelings can't be related to ratings (imo) and both PN and WM used to rely implicity on Ruby's feelings about how much horse he had under him, and I'd trust his judgement over any rating's arithmetic.
Ruby rode Master Minded (2008) to one of the most impressive Champion Chase victories you're likely to witness but, if Ruby says Kauto's was better, I'm inclined to believe him.
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I must admit Master Minded looked impressive but then he was beating a horse that simply was a very ordinary 2 miler that happened to be in the right place at the right time.

If you check out the races he won at 2 miles beating horses like Hullabaloo and Monkerhostin who was a 2m4f plus horse it was very ordinary.

However he had won the QMCC but despite beating a tree the handicapper in his wisdom treated the race as he does and Grade 1 and smacked a whopping 169 rating on him.

Along comes Master Minded and he wins a poor QMCC by most standards and he becomes the highest rated chaser in the country despite Kauto having won a Gold Cups and 2 or 3 King George's by that time.

So in a sense I agree you are better trusting a jockey than a handicapper in most cases.

However Kauto was the apple of Ruby's eye and Ruby was being asked after the horse had built up the best form of any NH horse since Golden Miller including Arkle.

Little doubt in my mind Ruby was speaking with rose coloured glasses on. If you check from 2m to 2m2f Kauto won 3 races from 10 races Douvan won 13 from 13 before his QMCC injury all but ended him as a high class chaser.

Anyway he now commentates and spews out more shite than Paddy McGinty's goat:lol:
 
Ratings/schmatings.
As GG points out, any horse must have its iabolutely ideal conditions to show its ultimate best, and it would be folly to assume when, A beats B, that both had their perfect circumtances. A horse's true capability is only known by very few, and I'd warrant that trainer and jockey are likely more informed than any handicapper, or pundit.
 
HawkWing said:
Terry biddlecombe said best mate was better than arkle who only beat slow old boats.
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... which could be used either in favour of the 'listen to the jockey' argument or 'jockeys are the worst tipsters' argument.

Best Mate won three duff Gold Cups. If I could be arsed, I'd look up the name of that handicapper he only narrowly beat in the race.

That handicapper may or not have been the equivalent of Stalbridge Colonist, himself placed in two Gold Cups, but Arkle gave him 35lbs and a beating.

Personally, I find the idea of Best Mate being compared with Arkle as laughable because I was very comfortable with my own ratings when BM was running and I couldn't get him above 178 (which is actually very good) at his best. He may have been able to produce more in some of those races if really pressed, so 178+.

Desert Orchid got over 190 from me once or twice but his genuine versatility and consistency added another dimension to his appeal. But his big flaw was an inability to run to his best at Cheltenham so comparisons with other Gold Cup winners [within the context of that race alone] will never be positive.

I don't recall Kauto Star getting over 190 from me but his wide-margin KG win from Madison Du Berlais would have come close.

I would have splinters in my backside thinking about which was better between Kauto Star and Denman and maybe even Desert Orchid but there is no doubt in my mind Arkle was in another league. He really was just a freak of nature.
 
Dreaper reckoned Flyingbolt was better than Arkle, but he kept them apart so we’ll never know. Mill House (giving weight) beat Arkle in the Hennessy and I thought he’d repeat the dose in the Gold Cup. Not a bit of it, Arkle not only won but he destroyed Mill House mentally and the five lengths he won by became twenty lengths the following year.
 
Desert Orchid said:
That handicapper may or not have been the equivalent of Stalbridge Colonist, himself placed in two Gold Cups, but Arkle gave him 35lbs and a beating.
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Turpin Green placed in a Gold Cup. The likelihood is that Stalbridge Colonist was no better than a 150/155 beast. 200+ for Arkle remains a ludicrous rating and I've said this before, Phil Bull had no regard for Jumps racing and it's fairly obvious he left the handicapping of that sphere of the game to the teaboy.
 
Euronymous said:
Turpin Green placed in a Gold Cup. The likelihood is that Stalbridge Colonist was no better than a 150/155 beast.
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Yet he was top weight for the top handicaps for which Arkle didn't have an entry or for the separate handicaps weighted without Arkle.

I would imagine, looking through the top weights for the next few big handicap chases (PP - Espoir De Romnay 160, the Hurst Park (the old B&W, if I'm not mistaken) - Sky Pirate 159, Hennessy - Royale Pagaille 163) Stalbridge Colonist was around that kind of level, so around 161, and Arkle was giving 35lbs (196) (and hammering them). Factor in the fact that you don't win big handicaps unless you're well in - they go up around 5-7lbs for winning these races, so taking him over 200 comfortably.

All that said, though, I have questioned whether Arkle and Flyingbolt (and maybe Sea Bird II) may have been on drugs. They were probably rife in certain quarters, probably not thought to be illegal, rather a means of enhancing performance ahead of a wider appreciation of the 'benefits' of such treatments. If they brought about a 10% improvement a 170 horse would soon be pushing 190.
 
There was never a hint of drugs, but you’d have to say if those two were then they all were. As for Seabird, the guy standing next to me bellowed “Seabird wins!!” just after he started his move with well over a furlong left and he certainly went as if tied to a rocket.
 
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barjon said:
There was never a hint of drugs, but you’d have to say if those two were then they all were. As for Seabird, the guy standing next to me bellowed “Seabird wins!!” just after he started his move with well over a furlong left and he certainly went as if tied to a rocket.
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There's a brilliant B/W film of Sea Bird's Arc. When he starts his move down the outside it's almost as though he running along on an airport walker next to people not using it. He seems to take just two strides to all the others' three.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I would imagine, looking through the top weights for the next few big handicap chases (PP - Espoir De Romnay 160, the Hurst Park (the old B&W, if I'm not mistaken) - Sky Pirate 159, Hennessy - Royale Pagaille 163) Stalbridge Colonist was around that kind of level, so around 161,
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Well, all British handicap chasers are at least ten pounds too high - the main reason the Irish win all the handicaps at the Festival.

So that puts SC on 151.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
There's a brilliant B/W film of Sea Bird's Arc. When he starts his move down the outside it's almost as though he running along on an airport walker next to people not using it. He seems to take just two strides to all the others' three.
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Aye, I’ve seen many brilliant horses and performances in my time, but the Seabird runs in the Derby (the one I was talking about) and the Arc are probably the most breathtaking. I was a big Mill House fan so I could never fully take to Arkle!

Ah, memories, memories - but back to this Kauto Star fella.
 
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