Kicking King

In case of any misunderstanding, I'd like to add that any horse shouldn't be rushed back into training and should have the full time off, not just Gold Cup winners! It just so happens that this is one!
 
My remarks are based on this quote from the RP in December 07 :

"He's had absolutely no setback and the horse is in absolutely terrific fettle, but he won't be running this year," said Morris.
"We are not rushing him back. He is in strong work but we decided that time was running out. It is not even nine months since he had the surgery. Normally it takes a year before they are even being ridden out, but he has been ridden for the last six months.
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Lunacy.
 
They have given this horse plenty of time….they have taken no risks. The horse cantered past the stands and that was it…….he looked well but with plenty of condition. If he is not up to a gentle canter for barely over a furlong just a few months away from going back into full training then he certainly won’t be seen next year.

I suspect Mr O'Leary's vets etc have an idea or two about how the horse has progressing and the extent of the injury.
 
Re O'Leary, two years ago on Gold cup day he had completely written off the horse and was rather brash in terms of he had his gold cup and that was it, they don't come back and he didnt seem to interested in terms of the horse racing again. Maybe its the nature of the beast but his attitude disappointed me
 
But Gal, they patently haven't given him the time!

Ok he might not be on the track but Morris himself admits that rather than give him the year off that he should have had, they were riding him after 3 months - why?

It is so easy to be impatient when you have a horse sitting in a field but the best way to give them a chance is to leave them alone for at least that full year, not start riding them almost straightaway and even get to the stage where they are in full training.

Once they decided in December that he would have the rest of this season off as they didn't want to rush him, why oh why did they clearly keep riding him? He should have been given the time off, not cantering away - every time they put a saddle on him they are eating into that borrowed time before either that leg goes again or the other one goes as he is favouring it when trying to avoid using the bad leg.

If he will be going into full training in a few months time, why isn't he on holiday, in a field, now? Why are they messing around cantering him, not least cantering him (even a light one) on a racecourse, in front of crowds, where he is liable to get worked up, do too much and injure himself further?

None of it makes any sense if they want to keep the horse in one piece and the one unavoidable fact is that they have indeed rushed him, by their own admittance - riding him again after 3 months is absolutely bizarre.
 
Can anyone name any horses who have come back to top class form after a tendon injury?

I know Sabin Du Loir did - are there any others?
 
Inglis Drever maybe, although I think SL has said before that in that case they were being ultra-safe with him after finding a tiny bit of damage.
 
It was more of a slight strain rather than a tear, hole or other damage and yes, they played it very safe with him as soon as he showed signs that it was warm/inflamed.
 
So have any others come back from a tear and got back to the top? I cannot think of any, but I might be wrong.

Aldaniti was injured wasn't he, which added to the emotion of his national win - but I am not sure that was a tendon was it?
 
I have only just seen this thread.

I am no expert on tendon injuries apart from the fact two of my racehorses have had tendon injuries and both have come back. Gizzmo I retired as he had another injury as well and so Brendan decided retiring him from racing would be the kindest thing although he said other trainers may risk him - he wouldn't. Gizzmo is show jumping now and loving it.

After Bay Hawk's setback he was happily cantering around a field after a period of box rest - well in fact cantering and galloping around a field. He was having his first race in less than 12 months - and 2 to 2 and a half months months of that was getting him race fit - with a rider on his back!

Every horse is different - nearly every injury is slightly different and different vets suggest different remedies The age of the horse can also play a part in what to do. The first scans tell the initial story and then the vet involved decides the best course of action to take. Regular scanning then tells the vet how to proceed with the amount of rest and then the amount and type of exercise.

I certainly wouldn't dream of telling any other trainer what is best for the horse in his care. If a trainer felt that a gentle canter was OK, then so be it.

Bay Hawk is no world beater but he had a tendon injury and came back to win.... twice! He has just had a nice holiday - and is now back in training. We may be taking him over the big fences next... if my nerves hold out. :brows:
 
Kathy, I really cannot be bothered to get into another argument with you over what you think you know.

Speak to anyone you like - anyone at all - who knows anything at all about tendon injuries. The one thing they need is TIME. It is also a sad fact that once a tendon goes you tend to be on borrowed time until it goes again if they come back (by back I mean back racing, not back into training then retired again through injury).

Any owner who rushes their horse back prematurely after a tendon injury is irresponsible in my book. For God's sake, Morris even admitted that he was riding War Of Attrition after 3 months when he was supposed to have had a year off. In doing such a thing they are asking for trouble and I feel sorry for the horse, not least when he owes them nothing. Is impatience worth so much that it is worth risking losing their horse for?
 
I have to side with SL here, as for every Aldaniti and Cyfor Malta who might have come back for one race (in Aldanitis case) or to a certain level of form (in Cyfor Maltas case, and Kicking King now) you have hunderts of horses who do not "come back" and never will. As SL said its nearly ALWAYS borrowed time until the injury does come back, its in the very nature of the tendon structure that the injury cannot fully heal as such - one vet explained it to me like to compare a tendon with a rubber band - once its snapped you can try and tie a knot into it, but the very spot is not "healed" and always likly to tear again (do I use the correct words here?!) - and all new methods like stem-cell-treatmeant etc. sometimes work, and sometimes donts, and the results basicly the same, see Well Cheif for example. I am yet to see any horse who was a genuine Group 1 performer before a tendon injury and has been a geniune tip-top Group 1 performer after - meaning a top-class horse holding, or even extending, his class after such injury. Not only it the injury itself, nearly every horse is going through the pain barrier just once, its in their head after.
 
To answer a previous question, Aldaniti suffered 2 serious tendon injuries; firstly in early 1976 as a hurdler and again in a handicap chase at Sandown in 1979. On each occasion he was sidelined for over a year. He also chipped a bone in a fetlock joint when finishing 3rd in the 1977 Hennessy Gold Cup, which saw him off the course for another year, so he's rather a special case.
 
Of course some do come back, but as Crazyhorse says it doesn't tend to last. Mely Moss came back from breaking down - he was off for two years before he came 2nd in the Foxhunter's - but he was notoriously fragile and didn't have too many races after that, all of which were spaced apart. He was treated successfully through firing and having his checks cut after his injury but wasn't easy to keep in training and Edgy did a grand job of doing so, something which is due in no small part to him being patient and giving him the time he needed in the first place. Another person who excels at giving these horses the time they need to bring them back is Hughie Morrison - really, the more time you can give them after a tendon injury, the better.

Your words look fine to me, Crazyhorse - what tends to happen is that when a tendon "heals" it actually produces scar tissue rather than live tissue to repair the damage. This scar tissue can be stronger than the original tendon but it is rigid and does not have the elasticity that the original tendon tissue has. Due to this it has no "give" in it, so rather than the tissue being flexible and absorbing concussion, etc, as it should do naturally, it can just give out at any time.
 
It's the same with humans, take Brian O'Driscoll or Michael owen , everytime they pull those dodgy hamstrings of theirs they're creating scar tissue and effectively shortening their careers.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@May 6 2008, 09:10 AM
Kathy, I really cannot be bothered to get into another argument with you over what you think you know.
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I am taking about what I know, SL not what I think I know. How many horses have you owned that have had a tendon injury?
 
My horse although not Racing did his Superficial Digital Flexor Tendon whilst competing in a x country event .....

The Superficial Digital Flexor is the tendon running down the back of the humerus over the back of the knee then down the back of the cannon bone, completely covering the deep digital flexor tendon.

At the lower end of the cannon bone the superficial digital flexor tendon widens and encircles the deep digital flexor tendon, forming a ring known as the annular ligament of the fetlock joint, extensions from which then attach to the short and long pastern bones.

He was under treatment for months , scanned regularly and massaged ....It was at least 18mths/2 years before we started to compete again , Difference being of course is that we didnt have to Gallop at speed ! He has had no problems since ...we dont compete anymore , but still do Farm rides and the odd showjumping ....

And yet my friends horse did a tendon and has never really been sound since ...

Depends on the Tendon , severity , & to a point which one ...also treatment & rest ...but all horses are different to see my lad when he did his i didnt think we would compete again .....
 
Yawn....one doesn't have to own a horse to know about them, Kathy. Some would say that those who look after and ride them at a grass roots level on a daily basis would have more experience on the subject in hand than those who turn up once a month to feed them polos....

Besides which, as you know, I am not interested in regaling everyone with a constant narrative of what my horses are doing/eating/thinking at every given moment.

Back to the subject in hand, the best known cure for a tendon injury is time. Fact.
 
Dear oh dear, grass roots is about right with your level of knowledge on some subjects , SL! There is absolutely no point carrying on any discussion with you as everyone knows you know best - except you don't really do you?

End of discussions on tendon injuries as despite what you think you know, I have a feeling the trainer and vet of Kicking King know more than you will ever know about how best to look after him and whether a canter on grass will be detrimental to his future wellbeing. End of story!
 
I don't mean to take sides here, but is it really necessary to be so rude to Kathy?

I am quite new here, but is it really necessary to drag a reasonable debate into an insulting argument Shadow?

Obviouslly Kath is an owner, and you work in a stable presumably as a groom Shadow? Perhaps therein lies the "attitude problem" perhaps?
 
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