King George (flat version)

EC1 said:
might be interesting to see where Derby winners did go later in the season which made running in the KG not worth the while..after Kris Kin

North Light - Irish Derby/Arc - Traditional 12f
Motivator - Eclipse/Irish Champion/Arc - Distance dropper
Sir Percy - Champion Stales - Distance dropper
Authorised - Eclipse/Juddmonte/Arc - Distance dropper
New Approach - Juddmonte/Irsih Champion/Champion - Distance dropper
Sea The Stars - Eclipse/Juddmonte/Irish Champion/Arc - Distance dropper
Workforce - KG/Arc - Traditional 12f
Pour Moi - no runs
Camelot - attempted triple crown - but even then season after - distance dropper
Ruler Of The World - Irish Derby/Niel/Arc - Traditional 12f
Australia - Irish Derby/Juddmonte/Irish Champion - Distance dropper

looking at those doesn't suggest that new targets are what has changed the appearance of Derby winners in the KG..its targetting shorter distance after getting 12f G1 status on the CV.
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So essentially what we're saying is that the decline of the King George is largely due to breeders. Which we can probably summarise as "it's all Miesque's fault!" :lol:

One does wonder if the desire to have a G1 win at 10f is a result of buyers or breeders - i.e. are buyers being told that it's bad to have a horse who was brilliant at 12f as they'll end up over sticks.
 
Are we not being too critical about the race?
After all, with different going, we could have seen the best 3-y-o colt against a very good G1 horse in Flintshire and some other top up-and-coming mature horses.
GH beating F would have been a key form reference this season, sadly it wasn't to be.

There is always a handful of horses missing in any given top G1 race during the calendar, including the Arc.
As Venusian says, there are so many choices nowadays that it is unrealistic to expect the best horses around to clash in every G1. There are so many things to consider as well, such as going, setbacks, etc...

There is no doubt that if the race were run over 10f in the future, fields would be better and there would be more 3-y-o running in it, but I personally don't wanna see that.
I am happy with the race as it is and every year I am hoping that owners like AO or SHamdan decide to send their best classic horses over there.
 
Tell you what....you can all blame me but until someone comes up with another way to pay my bills other than breeding and bloodstock I'll keep my opinions as they are! :) Now, would anyone be interested in buying a yearling? ;)
 
Every big owner's and trainer's dream is to have a Derby winner that "has the speed to win a July Cup ".
Hence from Commanche Run onwards everyone is trying to show their charges' speed over shorter trips.
The old order is changing; when i was a lad the notion of a "World Triple Crown " of King George, Arc and Washington DC International was given consideration by many as the ideal WFA Championship.
Breeders Cup, Japan Dubai and the 10 furlong consideration as being the Universal Classic distance has put the Ascot race on a hind footing.
"Progress " is the word given to such evolution I believe but do not take my word for it.
 
Miesque said:
Tell you what....you can all blame me but until someone comes up with another way to pay my bills other than breeding and bloodstock I'll keep my opinions as they are! :) Now, would anyone be interested in buying a yearling? ;)
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What would your take be on the chicken/egg question I put earlier? Are breeders pushing buyers into believing in the need for speed or is the other way round? Or is simply results?
 
Equinome's speed/distance gene is an easy way to explain the current trend for wanting stallions with sprint speed....

There's two options in the gene - C = fast twitch/sprint speed, T = slow twitch/stayer endurance. To excel at Classic distances of 8-12f a horse needs one of each, a C and a T. Stayers have a TT genome, Sprinters a CC. Everyone is trying to prove they have a CT colt effectively, so it has the most chance of producing more classic horses In the shed.



Then there's the fact that that you've more chance of eking a mile out of a sprinter than setting a stayer's arse on fire and having it be competitive at 10f. Finally, as with so much in breeding, it's fashion. Breeders want to see two year olds win at Group one level, come out and win the Guineas/Derby and take on older horses afterwards. Buyers want results, they want precocious two year olds not to wait until the horse is four for a Group One. It tilts everything towards speed with just enough stamina for the Derby distance. The St.Leger is effectively a way to sign up for a NH roster before he's even gone to stud these days. I'm not saying its right, and I'm the worst of those in that I breed solely for the yearling sales and therefore fashion even if it's not necessarily how I'd like to be doing it. It's what pays.
 
An interesting post, Miesque.

I don't blame you for favouring speed over stamina if you're breeding to sell. Much as I love the classic staying types, and want to see them cherished and well rewarded on the racecourse for their sterling efforts, I understand that most yearling buyers want something that, on paper at least, has a chance of at least doing something as a 2-y-o.

But I'm not so sure about your statement about eking a mile out of a sprinter being easier than bringing down a 12f or 14f horse to 10f.

I'd contend that what we call "sprinters" aren't really sprinters at all, save perhaps those Investec Dash-type animals that barely get 5f.

5f is a pretty arbitrary minimum distance, which has no scientific basis whatsoever, it just turned out that way. If we had races over 2 or 3f (I'm not saying we should), now that really would be a test of basic sprinting speed.

Perhaps we should lump together horses whose optimum trips range from a stiff 5f right up to those who get 12f as middle distance horse, appending "with speed" to those at the shorter end, and "with stamina" to those at the longer end. It might explain why horses like Danehill and Pivotal have regularly sired horses that can stay 10f or more.
 
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Miesque said:
Equinome's speed/distance gene is an easy way to explain the current trend for wanting stallions with sprint speed....

There's two options in the gene - C = fast twitch/sprint speed, T = slow twitch/stayer endurance. To excel at Classic distances of 8-12f a horse needs one of each, a C and a T. Stayers have a TT genome, Sprinters a CC. Everyone is trying to prove they have a CT colt effectively, so it has the most chance of producing more classic horses In the shed.



Then there's the fact that that you've more chance of eking a mile out of a sprinter than setting a stayer's arse on fire and having it be competitive at 10f. Finally, as with so much in breeding, it's fashion. Breeders want to see two year olds win at Group one level, come out and win the Guineas/Derby and take on older horses afterwards. Buyers want results, they want precocious two year olds not to wait until the horse is four for a Group One. It tilts everything towards speed with just enough stamina for the Derby distance. The St.Leger is effectively a way to sign up for a NH roster before he's even gone to stud these days. I'm not saying its right, and I'm the worst of those in that I breed solely for the yearling sales and therefore fashion even if it's not necessarily how I'd like to be doing it. It's what pays.
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Thinking on this a bit further, it would appear that the King George has become a reflection of society's desire to have it all and have it now. Who'd have thought post-race analysis could be philosophical, or that a horse race could be such a bellweather for society's whims.
 
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