King George (flat version)

Do you have to book tickets in advance for the Juddmonte? I'm very tempted to go to York this year having missed seeing Sea the Stars when he ran there.
 
Spoke to someone who had been at the course all day and he said that Gosden walked the course at 9 and GH 'was a definite' . There was one small bit of drizzle before racing, so can only think Dettori put them off because of the ground.
Really pleased for Postponed, very gutsy horse.
Shame about the whip ban as Andrea was only waving it at him for the last 100 yards or so from what I saw. Not surprised by Dettori's but he gave ET way too much too do. To say he looked miffed when he came in is an understatement.

I have just watched this again, I can't see how Andres's arm was high at all??
 
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Ajdal said:
I enjoyed reading your comments Miesque and I completely appreciate all the points you make and I suspect from the nuggets of information in your post that you have probably forgotten more about horse racing than I'll ever hope to learn, it made a very thoughtful read.

I do remember your mighty namesake running in the French Oaks on very soft ground and at the extremes of her comfort when turned over by Indian Skimmer early in her career.

Personally, I didn't see anything in the time that inclines me to think the going would have finished Golden Horn as racehorse and I still think he would of won, but I do appreciate that is just my opinion. I suspect should he win the International/B&H Gold Cup beating the Grey Gatsby again it will do little to enhance his reputation, he'll need Gleneagles, Solow or Treve to turn up and that's unlikely. The K.George on the CV on the otherhand would have been a feather in the cap and they could of then given him a break for a crack at the Arc or packed him off to stud then and there; not running him was also a gamble.

This K.George will always be a favourite of mine for gambling reasons, but I'll stick with my position that in the years to come we will look back on it and conclude it was a poor running of the race.

You know, I didn't have to give my opinions here but I thought it would be fun to share my thoughts but I'm a very unconfrontational type of fellow and to have my input summarised as 'today's thinkers with little foresight imo.' makes me inclined not to bother again.
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I hope you do continue posting, it's interesting to see everyone's perspectives.

Gosden has mentioned they would risk the ground later in the season not when they have another three races on his dance card. If the Arc is soft they'll risk it.
 
Miesque said:
I hope you do continue posting, it's interesting to see everyone's perspectives.

Gosden has mentioned they would risk the ground later in the season not when they have another three races on his dance card. If the Arc is soft they'll risk it.
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If he's still unbeaten at that stage of the season, and/or Treve turns up, I bet they don't.
 
Miesque said:
The horses can only beat what turn up though, surely.
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I knew someone would trot out this tired old cliche. It doesn't make the renewal any better. It would only have been marginally better had Golden Horn run.

I've looked at the ratings of the first three home for the past ten years, as you suggested. It is the joint worst renewal in that time with an average rating of 116 (the average average is 121). The other on 116 being Novellist's 5 length beating of Trading Leather (who is about the same level as Postponed and Eagle Top are).

I'm not generally given to denigrating the quality of a race, but in this instance it was a turd of a race from that perspective.
 
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moehat said:
Do you have to book tickets in advance for the Juddmonte? I'm very tempted to go to York this year having missed seeing Sea the Stars when he ran there.
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Unlikely, Moe, as it wouldn't attract nearly the same crowd as John Smith's day, which is still (afaiaa) pay on the day.


Pity Golden Horn didn't run, as he would have found this easier pickings than a fast ground Juddmonte. Likely to be the same paucity of top class opposition, but York ain't Sandown, and TGG - for one - should run him closer.
 
simmo said:
I knew someone would trot out this tired old cliche. It doesn't make the renewal any better. It would only have been marginally better had Golden Horn run.

I've looked at the ratings of the first three home for the past ten years, as you suggested. It is the joint worst renewal in that time with an average rating of 116 (the average average is 121). The other on 116 being Novellist's 5 length beating of Trading Leather (who is about the same level as Postponed and Eagle Top are).

I'm not generally given to denigrating the quality of a race, but in this instance it was a turd of a race from that perspective.
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Out of interest, which horses running would have made it a "good renewal" for you?

Thanks for the info on the OR of the previous races.
 
Whilst I feel that you are winding up to make a pitch any 2 of the following would have made it an average renewal, 3 or 4 of them for a "good" renewal......

Golden Horn, Treve, Jack Hobbs, Free Eagle, Dolniya, The Grey Gatsby, Al Kazeem, Pethers Moon
 
simmo said:
Whilst I feel that you are winding up to make a pitch any 2 of the following would have made it an average renewal, 3 or 4 of them for a "good" renewal......

Golden Horn, Treve, Jack Hobbs, Free Eagle, Dolniya, The Grey Gatsby, Al Kazeem, Pethers Moon
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We have talked about the drop in interest in the KG in the past...the problem now from a ratings perspective is that if just one decent horse drops out the race suffers a lot from just that one withdrawal. Had GH run and won then the average OHR of first 3 would have been 121..which is only average on Simmo's figures..but it now only takes that one good horse to not run and the race is looking like a G2 race.

But that average 121 is from the last 10 years when the race hasn't been what it was anyway..when the race was in its pomp you would have a couple of mid 120's horse in the mix..or even higher. I'd guess the race average before the last 10 years was probably 125/126 ish.

Visually i loved watching it..but ratings wise the race is below par even from the last 10 years..and well below when in pomp.
 
if you look at this years Dante from ratings perspective..it could be deemed a better race than the KG...which wouldn't really be ideal. In the Dante you had conservatively rated front two on 111+109 and elm park who is probably overrated at 117..the average is 112..but if judged on what the first two are really capable of then it comes to more than the KG average..and they beat a 113 horse into 4th by 13 lengths

KG needs a regeneration for sure..more prizemoney?
 
Too many Group 1 races so that they never have to meet each other until the Arc. Either get rid of some of the Group 1s or have a Group 1* race. That's ridiculous but it's getting that way.
 
The absence of Derby winners in the race has damaged it to a large degree in the last few years. At one time it was the highlight race..you couldn't wait to see the Derby winner take on his elders at 12f..and..it seemed..many years you got to see that. Its now just another G1..and one that seems unfashionable.
 
I think EC1 hit the nail on the head, the proliferation of Gp1 all aged 10f races (contributed by the change of distance of the French Derby which has been a disaster IMO) has made 10f the new 'championship' distance and with breeding trends and the fact it's the compromise distance for milers to meet mile and a halfers does in its defence make for some mouthwatering clashes, but there is starting to be an overdose of them and fillies and mares are even more spoilt in their opportunites and almost actively encouraged to avoid their male counterparts throughout mid-season.

However, it is to my fault I'm just a bit old fashioned, the KG to me is still the only real opportunity for the 3yo's to meet what remains of the previous generations over 12f in front of a UK audience and is a race steeped in history, it's roll of honour reads like a whos who of the racing world and I think it's slow decline is a shame. Eleanora Duse's 'ridiculous' comment about a Gp1* might just be the smartest idea I've read all day!
 
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i think the G1* is good too..it needs to be a race that people want to compete in above other races to get it back to what its there for.
 
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i remember the first time i really took notice of a Derby winner not running in it was Motivator..we discussed that decision on the forum at length. At that point i just didn't see the horse as a 10f horse..couldn't believe they were dropping him back to 10..he was an ideal KG horse. It was that year that sort of marks the beginning of the end of Derby horse running in the KG..10f after the Derby seemed to be the new trend. Which i dare say suits some Derby winners..but Motivator wasn't one who even looked like a 10 horse...but even with him it seemed it was worth a try. Was that the turning point re the 10f route?..or is my memory playing tricks?
 
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archie said:
A big Ballydoyle influence in this. I don't think that they've sent a Derby winner for it since Galileo.
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I think it's goes a bit deeper than that... If I remember correctly Romsdahl last year was the only 3YO who was even placed in the Derby to run in the K.George in the last 10 years... Workforce only ran in it at 4.
 
archie said:
Workforce ran in it at 3 and 4.
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my bad, dodgy memory... He ran so bad at 3 I clean forgot.... nothing worse than misinformation :)

Still... even with just 2 representatives in the last 10 years I think it's very revealing... Unless there were more??
 
The lack of 3yo's running in the race is a major contributor to the slow decline imo, as is the rise in prominence of the Arc as a kind of Cheltenham of Flat racing. However, I do think that the slow decline is somewhat over-stated - the line ups in the past 10 years have included some very special horses. The number of 120+ rated horses running in it year on year is as follows (from 2005)

3 3 2 3 3 2 3 4 1 3 1

If I went back over the next 10 years, I don't think we'd be seeing too much of a difference in those figures (but I doubt there would be any 1's).

In fact, I'll do it just to see. (from 1995)

2 3 5 4 4 4 5 4 7 3

My perception of the difference from flicking through them - it's changed from being a must stop to a possible stop (or perhaps just another dance on the dance card) for the best horses. Fillies, Frenchies and 3yo's the main difference.
 
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I think the answer is a mix of what has already been stated. Until the early 2000s it was accepted that the Derby winner would aim at the KG but, after Kris Kin in 2003, there was North Light (went to Irish Derby then didn't reappear until the autumn), Motivator (went the 10f route), Sir Percy (didn't reappear until the autumn) and Authorized (went the 10f route). Since then it's been mainly overseas winners. The Irish have either gone for the Irish Derby or the 10f route and it's become the fashion that a break is the best preparation for the Arc.
 
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The decline of the race is, imo, largely due to the current mania in the northern hemisphere for autumn "championships", think of our own Champions Day, the Arc, the druggy one in the U.S., also there's Ireland, HK and Japan.

For European 3-y-os in particular, after the spring classics over 1m to 1 1/2m and Royal Ascot, connections are increasingly looking to give them a break before their autumn campaign.

When the race started out (as The Festival of Britain Stakes), and for a good 30 years or so afterwards, there was only the St Leger (for 3-y-os), the Arc and the Champion stakes, to go for in the second half of the season. Now, there are tons of big autumn pots on offer.
 
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Venusian said:
The decline of the race is, imo, largely due to the current mania in the northern hemisphere for autumn "championships", think of our own Champions Day, the Arc, the druggy one in the U.S., also there's Ireland, HK and Japan.

For European 3-y-os in particular, after the spring classics over 1m to 1 1/2m and Royal Ascot, connections are increasingly looking to give them a break before their autumn campaign.

When the race started out (as The Festival of Britain Stakes), and for a good 30 years or so afterwards, there was only the St Leger (for 3-y-os), the Arc and the Champion stakes, to go for in the second half of the season. Now, there are tons of big autumn pots on offer.
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might be interesting to see where Derby winners did go later in the season which made running in the KG not worth the while..after Kris Kin

North Light - Irish Derby/Arc - Traditional 12f
Motivator - Eclipse/Irish Champion/Arc - Distance dropper
Sir Percy - Champion Stales - Distance dropper
Authorised - Eclipse/Juddmonte/Arc - Distance dropper
New Approach - Juddmonte/Irsih Champion/Champion - Distance dropper
Sea The Stars - Eclipse/Juddmonte/Irish Champion/Arc - Distance dropper
Workforce - KG/Arc - Traditional 12f
Pour Moi - no runs
Camelot - attempted triple crown - but even then season after - distance dropper
Ruler Of The World - Irish Derby/Niel/Arc - Traditional 12f
Australia - Irish Derby/Juddmonte/Irish Champion - Distance dropper

looking at those doesn't suggest that new targets are what has changed the appearance of Derby winners in the KG..its targetting shorter distance after getting 12f G1 status on the CV.
 
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