King George (flat version)
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Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Race 5 - 3:50pm THE KING GEORGE VI AND QUEEN ELIZABETH STAKES (CLASS 1) (Sponsored by QIPCO) (BRITISH CHAMPIONS SERIES) (Group 1)
The Stewards held an enquiry into the use of the whip by Frankie Dettori, the rider of EAGLE TOP, placed second, from approximately 1½ furlongs out. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race, they found him in breach of Schedule (B)6 Part 2 in that he used his whip above the permitted level. The Stewards suspended Dettori for 4 days as follows: Saturday 8, Sunday 9, Monday 10 and Tuesday 11 August 2015.
The Stewards also held an enquiry into the use of the whip by Andrea Atzeni, the rider of the winner, POSTPONED (IRE) from approximately 1½ furlongs out. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race, they found him in breach of Schedule (B)6 Part 2 in that he used his whip above the permitted level and down the shoulder in the forehand position. The Stewards suspended Atzeni for 6 days as follows: Saturday 8, Sunday 9, Monday 10, Tuesday 11, Wednesday 12 and Thursday 13 August 2015.
Pat Smullen, the rider of SNOW SKY, placed sixth, reported that the colt was never travelling. The trainer’s representative confirmed that the colt was unsuited by the Soft ground. The Veterinary Officer reported that a post-race examination of the colt during routine testing failed to reveal any abnormalities.
The Stewards held an enquiry into the use of the whip by Frankie Dettori, the rider of EAGLE TOP, placed second, from approximately 1½ furlongs out. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race, they found him in breach of Schedule (B)6 Part 2 in that he used his whip above the permitted level. The Stewards suspended Dettori for 4 days as follows: Saturday 8, Sunday 9, Monday 10 and Tuesday 11 August 2015.
The Stewards also held an enquiry into the use of the whip by Andrea Atzeni, the rider of the winner, POSTPONED (IRE) from approximately 1½ furlongs out. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race, they found him in breach of Schedule (B)6 Part 2 in that he used his whip above the permitted level and down the shoulder in the forehand position. The Stewards suspended Atzeni for 6 days as follows: Saturday 8, Sunday 9, Monday 10, Tuesday 11, Wednesday 12 and Thursday 13 August 2015.
Pat Smullen, the rider of SNOW SKY, placed sixth, reported that the colt was never travelling. The trainer’s representative confirmed that the colt was unsuited by the Soft ground. The Veterinary Officer reported that a post-race examination of the colt during routine testing failed to reveal any abnormalities.
that'll just be Marb then
Cough cough.... posts #42 & #58
I know it's been a long time since I previously posted here so I guess it was only fair you didn't notice my input. That race was just the perfect result for me... Postponed winning and Clever Cookie never looking like getting into the race.
I couldn't believe Clever Cookie kept shortening in the market, it was just a ridiculous price at the off, I just kept laying and left myself with a huge liability if it won, much more than makes the race a comfortable watch....
Anyway... I'm off to book my holiday
EC1
On a break
Cough cough.... posts #42 & #58
I know it's been a long time since I previously posted here so I guess it was only fair you didn't notice my input. That race was just the perfect result for me... Postponed winning and Clever Cookie never looking like getting into the race.
I couldn't believe Clever Cookie kept shortening in the market, it was just a ridiculous price at the off, I just kept laying and left myself with a huge liability if it won, much more than makes the race a comfortable watch....
Anyway... I'm off to book my holiday
apologies indeed..well done Adj
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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As an aside, I've been on this forum since the days of the C4 Racing forum and until today I never realised each posting was numbered :blink:
LBM
At the Start
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A few thougts after the race:
This is Cumani's first G1 win in UK since Starcraft in 2005
Frankie was on the best horse on the day and let it slip away. It is a shame because I don't think Eagle Top is going to have any more chances of picking up a group 1 this year (other than in Germany)
Dubawi has sired nine group 1 winners so far this year.
Dubai Destination is the broodmare sire of Postponed, Golden Horn and Dutch Connection, not bad at all...
Postponed would be the ideal candidate for the Japan Cup this year as Japanese horses this year are not very good with a lot of injured/retired ones.
Anybody knows if GH actually traveled to Ascot?
Why GH's owner still thinks his horse is a 10f one is beyond me.
Well done to all Postponed's backers.
This is Cumani's first G1 win in UK since Starcraft in 2005
Frankie was on the best horse on the day and let it slip away. It is a shame because I don't think Eagle Top is going to have any more chances of picking up a group 1 this year (other than in Germany)
Dubawi has sired nine group 1 winners so far this year.
Dubai Destination is the broodmare sire of Postponed, Golden Horn and Dutch Connection, not bad at all...
Postponed would be the ideal candidate for the Japan Cup this year as Japanese horses this year are not very good with a lot of injured/retired ones.
Anybody knows if GH actually traveled to Ascot?
Why GH's owner still thinks his horse is a 10f one is beyond me.
Well done to all Postponed's backers.
Diamond Geezer
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Miesque
At the Start
GH was indeed in the race course stables, very full of himself.
Miesque
At the Start
LBM
At the Start
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Thanks DG and Miesque.
My impression is that Frankie gave ET too much to do and asked him too much in a short space of time which bottom him and ran out of petrol in the last 50m.Not sure about his use of the whip on the last stages either. I think he thougth he got it in the bag and got a bit surprised P fought back.
I also think ET got a worse trip overall than P.At the end of the day we are talking about a nose defeat.
It would be interesting to read the sectionals, but my gut feeling is that P is closer to 100% than ET
My impression is that Frankie gave ET too much to do and asked him too much in a short space of time which bottom him and ran out of petrol in the last 50m.Not sure about his use of the whip on the last stages either. I think he thougth he got it in the bag and got a bit surprised P fought back.
I also think ET got a worse trip overall than P.At the end of the day we are talking about a nose defeat.
It would be interesting to read the sectionals, but my gut feeling is that P is closer to 100% than ET
My 2 cents, I think with hindsight we will conclude this was a very poor K.George, IMO you can't rate the performance of the first 2 any higher than the low 130's and that's being generous.
Postponed is a lovely genuine galloper and the race very much played into his hands today, similar to Snow Sky last time out. Eagle Top's a speedier type and I suspect he would of won today if it was run at a slower pace.
Oppenheimer bottled it and it's easy to understand why when you think how much it would effect the first years stud fee if he got bogged down and trailed home last, but I reckon he would have won this quite comfortably today and been rewarded with the great Derby, Eclipse and K.George treble on his CV. It now only leaves the Arc for Golden Horn to realistically win an all aged 12f Gp1 and he'll probably have to face softish ground there... and Treve, today was definitely the easier option.
It's a shame that so many potentially great 3 yo's don't turn up for the K.George nowadays, it certainly is harming the status of the race, it is really the only chance they have to take on their elders over 12f in the UK and the Arc is such a tough race to win for a 3yo who has been on the go from the start of the season and this year I don't know if I want Golden Horn to win it, because I'll be cheering on Treve to achieve racing immortality !!
Postponed is a lovely genuine galloper and the race very much played into his hands today, similar to Snow Sky last time out. Eagle Top's a speedier type and I suspect he would of won today if it was run at a slower pace.
Oppenheimer bottled it and it's easy to understand why when you think how much it would effect the first years stud fee if he got bogged down and trailed home last, but I reckon he would have won this quite comfortably today and been rewarded with the great Derby, Eclipse and K.George treble on his CV. It now only leaves the Arc for Golden Horn to realistically win an all aged 12f Gp1 and he'll probably have to face softish ground there... and Treve, today was definitely the easier option.
It's a shame that so many potentially great 3 yo's don't turn up for the K.George nowadays, it certainly is harming the status of the race, it is really the only chance they have to take on their elders over 12f in the UK and the Arc is such a tough race to win for a 3yo who has been on the go from the start of the season and this year I don't know if I want Golden Horn to win it, because I'll be cheering on Treve to achieve racing immortality !!
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simmo
Senior Jockey
I concur. It was a poor field to start with. The defection of Golden Horn left it looking shoddy for this class of race.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that Conduit is the poorest recent winner of the KG = he was a Gp1 winner beating 4 other Gp1 winners. Postponed was a Gp2 winner beating another Gp2 winner and a couple of Gp1 winners. It was a shocking renewal.
Miesque
At the Start
The horses can only beat what turn up though, surely. Has anyone has a look at the OR ratings average of the field and first three home of recent renewals?
Golden Horn - with my breeders hat on you couldn't have condoned running GH. If you gutted him in holding ground over a distance that is at the extremes of his comfort you'd possibly have ruined him for the season. Until you've ridden them it's incredibly hard to appreciate quite how much a race too far, a race on the wrong ground etc can affect a horse's mentality and work. Sometimes they just fold, go in to themselves and want nothing to do with all anymore. If anyone is racing at Newmarket, go watch the gallops in the morning but don't stand up on Warren Hill as most do go to the bottom and watch them jumping off. You'd be surprised at the amount of cajoling, nursing or outright bullying needed to get some to go on when they don't want to do it. It's easy to have a good one end up like that if you take a bit too much. As a punter it's easy to say run him, let him take his chance but the breeders view will always be long term - its where we make our money!
Golden Horn - with my breeders hat on you couldn't have condoned running GH. If you gutted him in holding ground over a distance that is at the extremes of his comfort you'd possibly have ruined him for the season. Until you've ridden them it's incredibly hard to appreciate quite how much a race too far, a race on the wrong ground etc can affect a horse's mentality and work. Sometimes they just fold, go in to themselves and want nothing to do with all anymore. If anyone is racing at Newmarket, go watch the gallops in the morning but don't stand up on Warren Hill as most do go to the bottom and watch them jumping off. You'd be surprised at the amount of cajoling, nursing or outright bullying needed to get some to go on when they don't want to do it. It's easy to have a good one end up like that if you take a bit too much. As a punter it's easy to say run him, let him take his chance but the breeders view will always be long term - its where we make our money!
EC1
On a break
How would you get such a rating for the race and do you think low 130's is poor.
totally agree Miesque..i wouldn't have run him with the state the round course was in..there were clumps like dinner plates flying in Swinley bottom.
I think its easy to see how really poor decisions are made when you see how some punters would run their horses if it were their decision...yes run him or you are a coward..get him beat..and then not win two more races with him..pure genius thinking isn't it?...today thinkers with little foresight imo.
Someone on thread mentioned Camelot and Irish Derby...many punters would have slated AOB if he had ducked that race..same ones that will slate Gosden yesterday..that Irish Derby bottomed the horse..could have been same yesterday
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EC1
On a break
I enjoyed reading your comments Miesque and I completely appreciate all the points you make and I suspect from the nuggets of information in your post that you have probably forgotten more about horse racing than I'll ever hope to learn, it made a very thoughtful read.
I do remember your mighty namesake running in the French Oaks on very soft ground and at the extremes of her comfort when turned over by Indian Skimmer early in her career.
Personally, I didn't see anything in the time that inclines me to think the going would have finished Golden Horn as racehorse and I still think he would of won, but I do appreciate that is just my opinion. I suspect should he win the International/B&H Gold Cup beating the Grey Gatsby again it will do little to enhance his reputation, he'll need Gleneagles, Solow or Treve to turn up and that's unlikely. The K.George on the CV on the otherhand would have been a feather in the cap and they could of then given him a break for a crack at the Arc or packed him off to stud then and there; not running him was also a gamble.
This K.George will always be a favourite of mine for gambling reasons, but I'll stick with my position that in the years to come we will look back on it and conclude it was a poor running of the race.
You know, I didn't have to give my opinions here but I thought it would be fun to share my thoughts but I'm a very unconfrontational type of fellow and to have my input summarised as 'today's thinkers with little foresight imo.' makes me inclined not to bother again.
I do remember your mighty namesake running in the French Oaks on very soft ground and at the extremes of her comfort when turned over by Indian Skimmer early in her career.
Personally, I didn't see anything in the time that inclines me to think the going would have finished Golden Horn as racehorse and I still think he would of won, but I do appreciate that is just my opinion. I suspect should he win the International/B&H Gold Cup beating the Grey Gatsby again it will do little to enhance his reputation, he'll need Gleneagles, Solow or Treve to turn up and that's unlikely. The K.George on the CV on the otherhand would have been a feather in the cap and they could of then given him a break for a crack at the Arc or packed him off to stud then and there; not running him was also a gamble.
This K.George will always be a favourite of mine for gambling reasons, but I'll stick with my position that in the years to come we will look back on it and conclude it was a poor running of the race.
You know, I didn't have to give my opinions here but I thought it would be fun to share my thoughts but I'm a very unconfrontational type of fellow and to have my input summarised as 'today's thinkers with little foresight imo.' makes me inclined not to bother again.
EC1
On a break
no ..my comment wasn't aimed at you or anyone on this thread..would have quoted your post if it was...sorry...you gave a decent reasoning to your view...i've read elsewhere and was commenting on the general dismissal, without any thought being given to his reason for connections not running him.
I think the main reason for him not running was the state of the track away from the straight..which was pretty deep..particularly in the bottom of the course...and when you see the divets flying up you can see why they didn't risk him
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Frankel
Senior Jockey
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In terms of the race yesterday. I'm of the view that Eagle Top was unlucky. Yes you can credit the winner fighting back. However the winner was in the right place throughout. Eagle Top had plenty to make up and had to run wider coming in to straight thus probably costing him at the death. Ultimately there is not much between them so hard to be certain either way.
As for Golden Horn not running. A selfish part of me is happy because the Juddmonte will take more winning than yesterday.
Free Eagle, Time Test and New Bay possibly lining up. Looks tasty if all turning up.
As for Golden Horn not running. A selfish part of me is happy because the Juddmonte will take more winning than yesterday.
Free Eagle, Time Test and New Bay possibly lining up. Looks tasty if all turning up.
EC1
On a break
the winner was in the wrong place really...eagle top was in the right place.
to give some sort of comparison..the later winner of the 12f handicap..a race that wasn't a crawl by any means but wasn't run at a true pace..was 7 seconds slower to 3 out than the KG..7 seconds shows you just how fast the KG was run to that point. Postponed was disadvantaged by being nearer to that pace..and imo will beat Eagle Top any time they meet again
Frankel
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Disagree about him being in wrong place. He wants a strong pace which is what he got. He was always going to be hard to pass with that in mind. Credit he fought back but we are talking small distances. Like the Hardwicke where not much between them. Clearly hard to compare as they were fighting each other from the off and pace very different. However, Eagle Top got past Postponed late on and think he may well have hung on yesterday too under slightly different circumstances.
Either way there is not much between them based on last two runs.
You excited about Juddmonte?
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EC1
On a break
Eagle needs the pace to collapse..as it did when he won at royal meeting other year...which it did to a large degree yesterday..but Postponed is better than ET to the tune of 4lb on yesterdays performance and so found more even though the pace should have made him drop back. The only way ET will beat Postponed is if they go even faster early..which is unlikely and also unlikely that a jock would ride any faster than yesterday on postponed..atzeni did get too near the near the pace to be fair but the horse got him home through sheer ability
imo
yes looking forward to juddmonte very much..lets hope its one to remember
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EC1
On a break
the interesting horse was Romsdal...that run shows is back to best..looks like put there for Eagle's enefit but didn't quite burst the pace enough to get his stable mate home..can win at G2 level on that show