King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes 2023

Westover

Is his 3 1/2 length defeat by Equinox the best form in the race?

He was given too much to do in the CC and not the first time Hornby has done that on him, he's overpriced at 14s and im on e.w

I think Auguste wins if it's not too soft, he won at Doncaster on soft but wouldn't want it heavy, i might do a rfc on them
 
Adayar has been retired. Shame, I thought his Derby win was good and he backed it up winning the KG. A lovely stamp of a horse, I hope he gets supported at stud.
 
edgt said:
Hamish getting my attention for a longshot.
A descendant of Girl Friend, one of those bargain buys of the 1970s that kept running well in top sprints .
Harris Tweed is in the family so stamina no doubt.
Neither is soft a disadvantage for Motivator stock.
In the Haggis family for generations and not like our William to tilt at windmills.
I doubt if AR shows up if going correct.
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I very rarely bet and I've put a massive, for me, £5 each way on Hamish. He's got fitness on his side, and more rain due round later apparently so he has to have an each way chance I would hope. I'm not expecting him to win but 3rd would be good :)

Just looking at the results from today, the majority who won today have performed better/won with soft in the description.
 
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G-G said:
I very rarely bet and I've put a massive, for me, £5 each way on Hamish. He's got fitness on his side, and more rain due round later apparently so he has to have an each way chance I would hope. I'm not expecting him to win but 3rd would be good :)

Just looking at the results from today, the majority who won today have performed better/won with soft in the description.
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My take on the race, written earlier today (emphasis is mine):

This is a very decent renewal but, for me, hardly the “race of the ages” being bandied about in the media, but, of course, their job is to hype events in order to increase viewing figures. When you consider that the real greats were rated in the mid-high 130s up to the mid-140s (Mill Reef, for example) it puts this renewal into perspective. It’s a strong, very competitive race - I rather harshly referred to it as a glorified handicap earlier in the week on the forum – and should be a compelling spectacle. I thought about taking 20/1 Westover at the 5-day dec stage but can let 14s go. I see some pundits are suggesting Hamish, due to the conditions, but it’s hard to see him running to better than 120 and everything else failing to run their race. William Muir’s enthusiasm for Pyledriver is very infectious. I thought his post-Harwicke interview was brilliant and he reiterated his strong view that the horse was nowhere near fit that day in a stable tour piece during the week. The top three combine at very marginally better than evens (48%) at best odds and I could see a pro punter being interested in that. I think I’d rather take that than the price about Auguste Rodin to improve past them. I’m already cringing at the expectation that pundits who should know better will refer to the 3yos getting a “huge/massive/advantageous*” – *delete according to preference – weight allowance. Adayar was the only 3yo, having just won the Derby, in the last five years to win and the two he beat were rated 122. The previous one was the exceptional Enable and before her Taghrooda nine years ago, whose two main rivals were rated 123 (Telescope, arguably over-rated for winning a poor Hardwicke) and the disappointing [on the day] Magician (124}. That’s not to say one of them can’t win; just that they have plenty to do relative to their odds. Put a gun to my head for one horse to win and I’d say Hukum.


Good luck, G-G.
 
Great race. Any of the top seven in the market winning wouldn't be a surprise and so bet wise are there any angles to exploit? I can think of two - the ground might not be fast enough for AR and I can just see the jockey on King of Steel getting into trouble from that draw. So at around 9/2..5/1 I think Hukum and Emily Upjohn are the horses to bet (I don't like big price horses in Group races, terrible record with them). I don't fell strongly enough to back them in singles so I have them in multis with fancies next week at Goodwood namely Gregory in the Goodwood Cup and Perfuse in the 12f handicap.
 
King Of Steel got first run on Auguste Rodin in the Derby, and was flattered,imo.
If AR runs, he wins - cosy.
 
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I know it's Aiden's job to sell his horses to the potential breeding customers but there's something about the way he talks about AR that makes me think he truly believes this horse is very special.

Like Reet I recon if he runs he wins and as indicated before Emily Upjohn is the main danger.
 
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reet hard said:
King Of Steel got first run on Auguste Rodin in the Derby, and was flattered,imo.
If AR runs, he wins - cosy.
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A bit of six and half a dozen for me but the same opinion, pretty much, as far as these two go.

King Of Steel went a wee bit too soon and Auguste Rodin got by him.

That said, I'm still of the opinion that AR won despite a poor tactical ride by Moore, who had the horse too far back for my liking. However, I could accept that maybe the horse didn't like the track and couldn't get into a good position because of it and that Moore didn't have any options. I thought Auguste Rodin did remarkably well to get into a challenging position and then get past the winner. That's why I believe he'll confirm the form.

But they've both got plenty to do against the older horses. That's not to say they can't improve past them but I couldn't back them to do so.
 
Timeform card for interest:

Sean Levey silk BOLSHOI BALLET (IRE) (39) Sean Levey 5 9-9 122
1 (2) Aidan O'Brien, Ireland hot trainer
tall horse: smart performer: creditable efforts when placed last 2 starts, in Aston Park Stakes at Newbury (very close third behind Haskoy) and Wolferton Stakes at Royal Ascot (7/1, 1¼ lengths second of 16 to Royal Champion, sticking to task): stays 1½m: acts on any turf going: has worn headgear (not this year).
2/121214-4 Oisin Murphy silk DEAUVILLE LEGEND (IRE) (35) D Oisin Murphy 4 9-9 125
2 (9) James Ferguson k
good-topped gelding: very smart performer: won maiden at Windsor, Bahrain Trophy at Newmarket and Great Voltigeur Stakes at York (by 2¾ lengths from Secret State) in 2022: off 8 months, 17/2, shaped as if retaining ability when 2¾ lengths fourth of 7 to Pyledriver in Hardwicke Stakes at Royal Ascot last time, keeping on late after short of room under 2f out: stays 2m: acts on polytrack, soft and good to firm going: strong traveller: genuine.
47/1212-11 Richard Kingscote silk HAMISH (14) CD Richard Kingscote 7 9-9 129
3 (7) William Haggas hot trainer kr
sturdy gelding: very smart performer: won Ormonde Stakes at Chester (by 1¼ lengths from Lone Eagle) in May: off 9 weeks, 4/9, value for extra when followed up in 5-runner Silver Cup at York last time by head from Scriptwriter, overcoming pace bias: effective at 1½m/1¾m: acts on polytrack and any turf going: often travels strongly.
1121/171-1 Jim Crowley silk HUKUM (IRE) (65) CD Jim Crowley horse in focus 6 9-9 134
4 (4) Owen Burrows (t) k
attractive horse: high-class performer: won Dubai City of Gold at Meydan and Coronation Cup at Epsom (by 4¼ lengths from Pyledriver) in 2022: off 12 months, 5/1, overcame unfavourable circumstances when also won in 6-runner Brigadier Gerard Stakes at Sandown last time by ½ length from Desert Crown, quickening to lead final 50 yds having conceded first run (shuffled back from over 2f out): effective from 1¼m-1¾m: acts on polytrack and heavy going: wears tongue tie: often travels strongly.
1/3117-512 Seamie Heffernan silk LUXEMBOURG (IRE) (38) BF Seamie Heffernan 4 9-9 132
5 (1) Aidan O'Brien, Ireland hot trainer
well-made, good sort: high-class performer: won Irish Champion Stakes at Leopardstown (by ½ length from Onesto) in 2022: also won Tattersalls Gold Cup at the Curragh (by ½ length from Bay Bridge) in May: 2/1, respectable 4 lengths second of 6 to Mostahdaf in Prince of Wales's Stakes at Royal Ascot last time, not quickening having been headed over 1f out: should be suited by 1½m: acts on heavy going.
1112/0-113 Adam Kirby silk POINT LONSDALE (IRE) (57) C Adam Kirby 4 9-9 124
6 (5) Aidan O'Brien, Ireland hot trainer 2
compact colt: very smart performer: won Alleged Stakes at the Curragh in April and Huxley Stakes at Chester (by neck from Mujtaba) in May: 7/2, possibly found conditions firmer than ideal when 9¼ lengths third of 5 to Emily Upjohn in Coronation Cup at Epsom last time: should stay at least 1½m: acts on heavy going.
112/0421-1 P. J. McDonald silk PYLEDRIVER (35) CD P. J. McDonald horse for course 6 9-9 131
7 (6) William Muir & Chris Grassick k
good-topped horse: high-class performer: won King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot (by 2¾ lengths from Torquator Tasso) on final 2022 start (reportedly suffered a setback after): off 11 months, 7/2, didn't need to be at best when followed up in 7-runner Hardwicke Stakes at Royal Ascot last time by 1¼ lengths from West Wind Blows, leading 1f out: stays 1½m: acts on polytrack, soft and good to firm going.
13156-221 Rob Hornby silk WESTOVER (21) D Rob Hornby 4 9-9 130
8 (10) Ralph Beckett hot trainer r
tall, attractive colt: high-class performer: successful twice in 2022, including in Irish Derby at the Curragh (by 7 lengths from Piz Badile): runner-up on first 2 starts this year, in Dubai Sheema Classic at Meydan (3½ lengths behind Equinox) and Coronation Cup at Epsom (beaten 1¾ lengths by Emily Upjohn): 1/2, won 5-runner Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud last time by 2 lengths from Zagrey, leading early in straight: stays 1½m: has form on heavy going, but probably better under less testing conditions.
1/11261-12 Frankie Dettori silk EMILY UPJOHN (21) CD Frankie Dettori 4 9-6 135
9 (8) John & Thady Gosden 4 kr
tall, good-topped filly: high-class performer: won Coronation Cup at Epsom (by 1¾ lengths from Westover) in June: 85/40, lost little in defeat when ½-length second of 4 to highly-progressive 3-y-o Paddington in Eclipse Stakes at Sandown last time: stays 1½m: acts on tapeta, good to firm and good to soft going: tried in hood: usually waited with, and tends to travel strongly.
2111-011 Ryan Moore silk AUGUSTE RODIN (IRE) (27) D Ryan Moore 3 8-12 131p
10 (11) Aidan O'Brien, Ireland hot trainer
rather finely-made colt: high-class performer: won Derby at Epsom (by ½ length from King of Steel, steady headway from 3f out to lead final 100 yds) in June: 4/11, didn't need to fully repeat that form when followed up in 9-runner Irish Derby at the Curragh last time by 1½ lengths from Adelaide River, asserting only well inside final 1f: stays 1½m: acts on good to firm and heavy going: remains open to improvement.
17-21 Kevin Stott silk KING OF STEEL (USA) (36) CD Kevin Stott horse in focus 3 8-12 130p
11 (3) Roger Varian
$200,000Y: big, good-bodied colt: third foal: dam, 1½m-15f winner, sister to smart 1½m winner Miss Crissy: very smart form: excellent second in Derby at Epsom (½ length behind Auguste Rodin, quickening to lead over 2f out and going clear briefly before collared final 100 yds) on reappearance in June: 11/10, impressive when won 6-runner King Edward VII Stakes at Royal Ascot last time by 3½ lengths from Continuous, travelling powerfully before quickening to lead under 2f out: trained at 2 yrs by David Loughnane: stays 1½m: remains open to improvement.
 
Desert Orchid said:
King Of Steel went a wee bit too soon and Auguste Rodin got by him.

That said, I'm still of the opinion that AR won despite a poor tactical ride by Moore, who had the horse too far back for my liking. However, I could accept that maybe the horse didn't like the track and couldn't get into a good position because of it and that Moore didn't have any options. I thought Auguste Rodin did remarkably well to get into a challenging position and then get past the winner. That's why I believe he'll confirm the form.
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So by that you are saying both were given poor rides.

They have actually both come from nearly the same distance back but far apart. Difference being the 2nd went for everything and the winner always looked like getting to him.
They were 5 lengths clear of the 3rd!

I expect the winner to beat the 2nd easier today given how the race will likely pan out.
 
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I don't think I said KOS got a "poor" ride. Apart from kicking on maybe half a furlong too early, it was a very good ride, which I believe I said at the time.

If AR was acting on the track and Moore was deliberately holding him back in the last third then, yes, I'd say it was a poor tactical ride but if that was as close as he could get the horse because it was struggling on the track then I'd be happy to retract the remark. Either way, AR has to be a bit special to have come from that far back to beat a horse that was leaving the field for dead.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I don't think I said KOS got a "poor" ride. Apart from kicking on maybe half a furlong too early, it was a very good ride, which I believe I said at the time.

If AR was acting on the track and Moore was deliberately holding him back in the last third then, yes, I'd say it was a poor tactical ride but if that was as close as he could get the horse because it was struggling on the track then I'd be happy to retract the remark. Either way, AR has to be a bit special to have come from that far back to beat a horse that was leaving the field for dead.
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Amounts to the same thing surely given they have both come from similar distance back, no?
 
Well, yes and no.

Compare their early positioning. KOS was closer to the pace in the first third and on the inside. AR was 2-3 lengths further back and wider. In the middle part of the race KOS was gradually losing ground on the leaders but still held the rail. Four out they were in roughly the same position as Moore was starting to wind up AR. KOS got a good split and Stott presumably felt he had to go for it and after that he probably had no option other than to try and steal the race.

Meanwhile Moore was making his ground on the outside but you'd have to admit KOS had the sharper turn of foot between four out and two out (he covered them 0.21s, about a length and a half, faster).

My own view is that Moore knew he had a top horse under him and was confident he'd win but I think KOS took him by surprise and he ended up giving AR a harder race than anticipated.

Take KOS out of the equation and I'd say Moore gave AR a peach and would have won easing down but if the horse is as good as they thought he could easily have been closer to the pace and won without giving the horse a hard time of it. I think he was showing off to an extent. He's usually a brilliant judge of pace and really should have been in the front five in the first mile given how steady the pace was. That's where Dettori would have had him. Or Piggott.
 
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I get the feeling that the general concensus among racegoers is that King Of Steel may just be a flash in the pan.

I am certainly of that way of thinking.

Something had to finish second in the Derby and those behind him leave a lot to be desired in this class.

He won a decent race himself but I think this is much much tougher and I put a pen through his name without hesitation
 
Damn what happened to Auguste there? He looked almost drugged he was struggling so early. That cannot be him right. Emily desperately disappointing too.
I was hoping for a Hukum/AR dual but I guess that’s racing.
 
Desert Orchid said:
My take on the race, written earlier today (emphasis is mine):

This is a very decent renewal but, for me, hardly the “race of the ages” being bandied about in the media, but, of course, their job is to hype events in order to increase viewing figures. When you consider that the real greats were rated in the mid-high 130s up to the mid-140s (Mill Reef, for example) it puts this renewal into perspective. It’s a strong, very competitive race - I rather harshly referred to it as a glorified handicap earlier in the week on the forum – and should be a compelling spectacle. I thought about taking 20/1 Westover at the 5-day dec stage but can let 14s go. I see some pundits are suggesting Hamish, due to the conditions, but it’s hard to see him running to better than 120 and everything else failing to run their race. William Muir’s enthusiasm for Pyledriver is very infectious. I thought his post-Harwicke interview was brilliant and he reiterated his strong view that the horse was nowhere near fit that day in a stable tour piece during the week. The top three combine at very marginally better than evens (48%) at best odds and I could see a pro punter being interested in that. I think I’d rather take that than the price about Auguste Rodin to improve past them. I’m already cringing at the expectation that pundits who should know better will refer to the 3yos getting a “huge/massive/advantageous*” – *delete according to preference – weight allowance. Adayar was the only 3yo, having just won the Derby, in the last five years to win and the two he beat were rated 122. The previous one was the exceptional Enable and before her Taghrooda nine years ago, whose two main rivals were rated 123 (Telescope, arguably over-rated for winning a poor Hardwicke) and the disappointing [on the day] Magician (124}. That’s not to say one of them can’t win; just that they have plenty to do relative to their odds. Put a gun to my head for one horse to win and I’d say Hukum.
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Could be called the winner half a mile out but Westover - how I came close to regretting that decision - fought on like a proper horse.

And all that stupid, uninformed blathering about the weight the 3yos were getting...
 
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