King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes 2023

jinnyj said:
More than happy to get anything of Becketts beat....I’m not a fan!
Burrows on the other hand is much under rated.
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Love the horse. Couple of big races have not panned out but he's a good horse. Was too big earlier on. The drift on Hukum was strange.
 
Very enjoyable. I wonder how much Hukum's drift was down to ITV going on and on about him needing maybe soft ground which is total bollocks. Or some of the "experts" constantly on about the WFA which is only a factor if the scale is wrong, which it is not for this race.
 
Euronymous said:
Very enjoyable. I wonder how much Hukum's drift was down to ITV going on and on about him needing maybe soft ground which is total bollocks. Or some of the "experts" constantly on about the WFA which is only a factor if the scale is wrong, which it is not for this race.
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His last run over 10, and against a mug!
 
They all seem to mention it. It's as though they're covering their arses in case the younger horses win.

The scale is there for a reason. If it didn't exist 3yos would never run in the race.
 
Just back from Ascot...what a great race, once Pyledriver out of it, I was screaming Hukum home What a great finish by both horses though.
August Rodin a beautiful horse to look at albeit not a lot of him. King Of Steel is a monster. Fantastic looking horse.
Ryan seemed to be indicating something wrong on AR's back end walking down the horse walk. Although he basically pulled him up, he didn't dismount until past the line but did so pretty quickly, and got the saddle off. He looked to be walking okay, but after a couple of buckets chucked over him in washing down area, they took him out back to the stables. They didn't have a vet looking at him, not one of the racecourse ones anyway. I'd be interested to see what he says he thought was the problem.
Deauville Legend finished a little distressed but was okay in the cooling down area with loads of water. Oisin Murphy looked very disappointed if nothing else.
 
Just found this on RP:
Aidan O'Brien could offer no immediate explanation for Auguste Rodin's "power disappearing" in the King George, but expects something to come to light in the coming days after the colt trailed in last of the ten runners.

Coolmore craved another Galileo, but Auguste Rodin was unable to do what the superstar sire achieved in his Classic campaign as his bid for the Derby-King George double never got going at all from his widest stall.

Despite being rock solid in the market beforehand, going off 9-4 favourite to supplement his Derby victories at Epsom and the Curragh, Ryan Moore was the first to send out distress signals as Auguste Rodin was being shoved along over half-a-mile from home. There was no response whatsoever and Moore was quick to accept defeat, bringing him home in his own time at the back of the pack.

A baffled O'Brien, who was seeking his fifth victory in the race, said: "I think he's fine but I don’t know what happened there. In the next few days something might come to light. Ryan said he never fired up at all. He was pushing at halfway. It was a very unusual run.
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I thought he travelled ok enough, even though he was out wide throughout, until it became clear the field were quickening the tempo, he started to back peddle, then Ryan shook the reigns and there was literally nothing there...with Auguste emptying very quickly. That's how it looked to me.

His Irish Derby win wasn't all that impressive, so perhaps one could argue since his Derby win at Epsom he has gone backwards or moreover not trained on.

Maybe Aidan put so much into getting him right for Epsom after his lacklustre Guineas effort that it's now taken its toll.

It could take him months if not another season to get him right again. Being a derby winner will he stay in training another season though?
 
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The sectional graphic. The closing 96% suggests they've gone too fast. The majority of the race is even-to-slow on the graphic so they must have been really hammering along at that red bit. There isn't enough room to show the full race. I look forward to Simon Rowlands's take on what happened.

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G-G said:
Just back from Ascot...what a great race, once Pyledriver out of it, I was screaming Hukum home What a great finish by both horses though.
August Rodin a beautiful horse to look at albeit not a lot of him. King Of Steel is a monster. Fantastic looking horse.
Ryan seemed to be indicating something wrong on AR's back end walking down the horse walk. Although he basically pulled him up, he didn't dismount until past the line but did so pretty quickly, and got the saddle off. He looked to be walking okay, but after a couple of buckets chucked over him in washing down area, they took him out back to the stables. They didn't have a vet looking at him, not one of the racecourse ones anyway. I'd be interested to see what he says he thought was the problem.
Deauville Legend finished a little distressed but was okay in the cooling down area with loads of water. Oisin Murphy looked very disappointed if nothing else.
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Thanks for this...always interesting to read an on the spot account! I can’t believe that nothin will come to light without AR...that run was simply too bad to be true. Horses can suffer from a multitude of things, some of which are hard to detect. It almost smacked of him being doped to be honest. I read the other day that Jason Serkis who trains in the US has been banned for five years for administering what they called “undetectable drugs”. That’s a scary thought that people are prepared to cheat to that extent still in this day and age.
 
Watching the race back, and concentrating on AR, Ryan asked him to pick up but there was absolutely no reaction. Ryan gave him one smack but there was nothing there. I would hazard that reaction and the way he was talking and pointing when he came in, that something was hurting the horse already and he just couldn't do anything else but continue as same stride/pace he was going . Luckily Ryan realised really quickly and that was the end of his race.
If you haven't seen it yet there is jockeycam footage on the net from P J MacDonald's view and he can be clearly shouting, ' go on Kevin, go on stotty boy' as KOS goes past him.
 
The way Ryan dropped AR out suggests he'd felt something had gone wrong with the colt, but connections wouldn't be quick to broadcast any weakness,imo.
 
edgt said:
They were very strung out behind the first two.
Going must have been tougher than description.
Great great race, one for the ages, AR aside.
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I've just watched the race again on Youtube with the ATR coverage.

INCREDIBLE RACE! HUKUM wins the King George at Ascot! - YouTube

Does anyone know when they started showing the pace descriptions as the race unfolds? I don't recall seeing tem before.

They appear to back up the sectional graphic on the results page so I'm presuming Simon Rowlands has had some input into how they're calculated. I suppose it's the equivalent of the on-screen graphic in swimming, where they show the superimposed line to show where the pace should be if the world record is to be matched.

But there would also have to be an allowance for the ground too in order to decide how fast it is. I ran the race simultaneously with the Hardwicke, which was obviously on faster ground and there wasn't much between them until turning for home, when the Hardwicke field started to pull clear, finishing about fifteen lengths before the King George. The on-screen graphic for yesterday's race was saying it was fast through most of the race, even from about four out and slow up the straight. That would also explain the 96% finishing fraction.

Leaving Auguste Rodin out of the equation, it would seem that the Ballydoyle pacemakers have overdone the pace and it has turned into a severe test of stamina for the trip.

But what excuses can connections put up for the beaten horses?

King Of Steel has probably run his race. He was going well turning for home.

Maybe Luxembourg didn't stay.

Maybe Pyledriver bounced to an extent, maybe he didn't like the ground.

Maybe Emily Upjohn needs the hood back on. She reportedly raced keenly, despite the fast early pace. Dettori reported to the stewards that she ran flat.

Having backed Hukum, I was counting my winnings turning for home but I have to say I was not confident about collecting from about two out until the last strides because Westover kept on so well.

I think both jockeys kept within the whip rules too, which was great to see.

I'm happy to collect but, the front two or three apart, the race raises more questions than answers.
 
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Doubt the pace was all that much, with 4-10 taking a pull.
Race was modest, as KG's go, and nothing like the pre-race hype promised.
 
I know it’s a bit apples and pears, but I’ve taken all the races at Ascot and established how slow they were per furlong to standard times. This is what I got:

1:15 Class 2 Maiden 6f - 0.94 slow per furlong
1:50 Group 3…….…...6f - 0.71 slow per furlong
2:25 Group 3…………..8f - 0.72 slow per furlong
3:00 Class 2…………….7f - 0.60 slow per furlong
3:40 Group 1………….12f - 0.35 slow per furlong
4:15 Listed……………….7f - 0.67 slow per furlong
4:50 Class 2……………..8f - 0.76 slow per furlong
5:25 Class 2……………..5f - 0.42 slow per furlong

It looks to me that the King George was the fastest run race to standard on the day. Says nothing about pace, of course, just overall time. About what you’d expect, I suppose, but certainly not a crawl.
 
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Well, as I said in the post above, they covered the first 12f in pretty much the same time as the Hardwicke, which was run on GF, whereas yesterday's ground was described as tacky and race times certainly pointed to slowish ground.

Visually it may have looked slow but it's tough going trying to travel at good-ground speed on tackier ground and that appears to have been borne out by the slow finish.

I'm not going to try and tell my granny how to suck eggs but for others out there who are interested in times, a going allowance of 0.5s per furlong - in other words, the give in the ground is slowing the horses up by that amount compared with the optimum - extrapolates to 4s per mile and 6s over 12f. Those equate to around 25 lengths, give or take. So yesterday, if the ground was 0.5spf slower than for the Hardwicke, the field should have been at least 20 lengths behind the Hardwicke at the four-furlong pole. They were, as I said, level-ish, so clearly have gone too fast for the conditions.
 
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barjon said:
I know it’s a bit apples and pears, but I’ve taken all the races at Ascot and established how slow they were per furlong to standard times. This is what I got:

1:15 Class 2 Maiden 6f - 0.94 slow per furlong
1:50 Group 3…….…...6f - 0.71 slow per furlong
2:25 Group 3…………..8f - 0.72 slow per furlong
3:00 Class 2…………….7f - 0.60 slow per furlong
3:40 Group 1………….12f - 0.35 slow per furlong
4:15 Listed……………….7f - 0.67 slow per furlong
4:50 Class 2……………..8f - 0.76 slow per furlong
5:25 Class 2……………..5f - 0.42 slow per furlong

It looks to me that the King George was the fastest run race to standard on the day. Says nothing about pace, of course, just overall time. About what you’d expect, I suppose, but certainly not a crawl.
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Taking out the KG most of the other races were run on the straight course and are averaging out at 0.69s slow per furlong. The round course is generally softer than the straight at Ascot and is uphill from Swinley Bottom so you'd really expect the times per furlong to be slower still.

Those times quoted certainly point to a fast-run race for the conditions. No wonder they were walking up the straight.

The next question, though, is how meaningful is yesterday's form going to be in future races? Is it going to be like Hawk Wing's Lockinge or Frankel's Guineas?

A wee anecdote for illustration, and a true one:

I once did a charity swim in the college pool, which took me over an hour. My PE colleague timed me and said my time was unexpectedly fast. I know I have slow-twitch muscles and can't do anything fast [other than make myself look stupid] but have strong stamina. I took things easy early in that swim and gradually built up and after half an hour was 'lapping' others in the pool. My colleague was talking about it to others at lunch the next day and no-one was believing him, so much so that I started doubting it myself.

The next week I went to the local public pool - Olympic size - and tried to replicate the time, with a friend doing the clocking.

I don't know whether I 'bounced' (which didn't occur to me at the time) or whether I went off quicker, being over-confident, but literally after two lengths I was struggling. I even went to the doctor the next day because, as I told him, I felt I was swimming uphill against an oncoming tide. I 'pulled up', to use racing parlance, after four lengths. I honestly think I went too fast for my own physical make-up and paid the price.

Deep down, I'm pretty sure that's why sectional times appeal to me as a possible interpretation of form.
 
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edgt said:
The first two had age advantage and were proper 12 f horses.
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I agree they are proper 12f horses but not sure about age conferring an advantage with the WFA scale in place. Unless you think the allowance isn't as much as it should be? (It has reduced in recent years.)

And it still annoys me thinking back to yesterday's coverage and how many time the weight concession was mentioned as though it was a huge plus for the younger horses.
 
The old dog for the hard road DO.
Jason Weaver made a telling point yesterday when saying Charlie Whittingham liked to keep horses training as 5 year olds, when they reached their full maturity.
(when they have a full set of teeth )
 
jinnyj said:
Thanks for this...always interesting to read an on the spot account! I can’t believe that nothin will come to light without AR...that run was simply too bad to be true. Horses can suffer from a multitude of things, some of which are hard to detect. It almost smacked of him being doped to be honest. I read the other day that Jason Serkis who trains in the US has been banned for five years for administering what they called “undetectable drugs”. That’s a scary thought that people are prepared to cheat to that extent still in this day and age.
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If there was anything suspicious done it took a while to kick in as he was lively in the pre parade and we were standing right near box 1, or Coolmore Corner as known apparently as they always use that box. The Coolmore horses all came in together and Adian said for AR to be last one saddled as he can be ' a bit of an idiot'. ( I wondered if that was the nearest he got to swearing?? ) They did leave it very last minute to saddle him, only walking round with one lad there but was on his toes. I wouldn't think they'd leave their horses alone for anyone to get to them. I would have also thought the racecourse vets would have wanted to take a sample as he was so poor? My vet is one of the racecourse vets, one from the practice coming out tomorrow morning to my muppet, I'll ask if that would have been done? So many people in the pre parade and paddock though nothing to do with any of the runners, the people there working the gates have no clue whatsoever, would only take a pat I guess to do something to him if clever enough.
 
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edgt said:
They were very strung out behind the first two.
Going must have been tougher than description.
Great great race, one for the ages, AR aside.
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Nothing was coming from behind all day, ground decribed as tacky by a couple although I think Jim Crowley said it was proper good ground in his post race interview, also adding that Hukum doesn't need soft ground, but horses finding it hard to make up ground if they weren't handy.
 
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