King George VI Chase

I think you can crab the form, CL, but not the performance. Scudamore was basically doing a Usain Bolt from half-way up the straight, and Thistlecrack is worth plenty more than the bare result, I reckon.

If he belts round Cheltenham with similar zip and zest, I don't know what is going to be able to live with him. Even if both Coneygree and the Don come back to their very best (they won't), I think Thistlecrack has the engine to worry them both - certainly the former anyway.

I was an admirer rather than a believer beforehand, and I'm pretty-much converted today.
 
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Grasshopper said:
I think you can crab the form, CL, but not the performance. Scudamore was basically doing a Usain Bolt from half-way up the straight, and Thistlecrack is worth plenty more than the bare result, I reckon.

If he belts round Cheltenham with similar zip and zest, I don't know what is going to be able to live with him. Even if both Coneygree and the Don come back to their very best (they won't), I think Thistlecrack has the engine to worry them both - certainly the former anyway.

I was an admirer rather than a believer beforehand, and I'm pretty-much converted today.
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Agreed. The race was put to bed turning in and the rest was just maintenance. There was more under the hood if required. A lot of people will try and crab his jumping to justify going against him in March but I reckon he's got such a big engine that he could uproot one and still recover.

It's fall or win.
 
Lots of epithetes but form behind leaves something to think of. Yes he was doing handstands in the home straight and he won as he liked but still I need to see him challenge Don or Coneygree before I put him as something really special. If Don recovers well is the best staying chaser since Kauto so TC needs put him to the sword to earn the high praises I heard from CH4 people.
 
Jumping aside, Thistlecrack looked liked he'd have enough to win a national in the tank.

I was a doubter until today, the Gold Cup is his to lose.
 
That's a fair if at the price. They way he jumped one of the ditches, if he does that at Cheltenham he could end up on his arse.

And you have to factor in the competition today. CC was not at it, Lizzie rode Tea for Two for the win which cost him (and me!) big time, JH is a non-stayer and Conti was too close to rate the form highly.
 
Thing is though, was Cue Card not at it because he tried to go with Thistlecrack - was Cue Card Kauto Star circa 2008 then.
 
Have only just seen the result. Looks like crap form but possibly a very good performance.

Cue Card obviously hasn't run his race and the cynic in me wonders how much Tizzard made from the race today...
 
Euronymous said:
Thing is though, was Cue Card not at it because he tried to go with Thistlecrack - was Cue Card Kauto Star circa 2008 then.
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That is an excellent question. We see it so often when a good horse goes all out against a superior animal and is picked up very late by lesser animals.

The thing is Cue Card was beaten well before the screw was turned and the pace had not been strong.

Add to that he lost to Irish Cavalier and Menorah, granted first time out but then he did only have Coneygree coming back from injury to beat in the Betfair who seemed to blow up miles from home. Let's not forget he is back on the sick list so that form might be worth very little.

I just think there's more pointing to Cue Card being on the downgrade or having run a stinker than Thistlecrack been to blame for what was a very poor performance.

His jumping was not a worry to me I wondered would he be able to handle Grade 1 chase pace and he certainly has done that by setting it himself

You can't crab the horse but the Gold Cup is a long way off and way too often the race looks all over bar the shouting on paper.

Then the tape goes up reality sets in and suddenly the real Coneygree, the real Cue Card and Don Cossack and Djaadam are clicking at your heels.

As I said earlier Kauto Star won the King George by 34 lengths not by 3 1/2 lengths and in a better field than Thistlecrack did so only an idiot would be counting his chickens,

Mind you the bigger idiot might turn out to be those who bet against him:lol:
 
Only just watched the race... he has won so easy its hard to fathom. Could have won by a fence or more if the had extended him. You'd be mad to crab the form when you actually watch the race. Coneygree wont stay with him....and there really is nothing is...Djack runs on for a place again. But the only thing that will beat TC is a fall.
 
Grasshopper said:
Fu*ck it. Cards on the table time.

I really, really like Thistlecrack, but genuinely believe he has beaten a bunch of boats his entire career, and could be over-rated as a result. For me, the undoubted visual glitter of his performances, does not hide the turds that he has been beating.

I concede that my position is probably in-part due to the fact that I'm a contrarian wanker anyway, but I feel an increasing sense of unease about how highly and widely Thistlecrack is being lauded, when he has never faced - let alone beaten - a horse I would describe as genuinely top-class.

On this basis, I have an overwhelming compunction to take a stand against him, in a race like the King George. I'll be laying Win and Place.

PS. If someone would be kind enough to start gathering food-stamps on my behalf, that would be a very moving Christmas gesture.
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where do we send them?
 
Digger said:
Only just watched the race... he has won so easy its hard to fathom. Could have won by a fence or more if the had extended him. You'd be mad to crab the form when you actually watch the race. Coneygree wont stay with him....and there really is nothing is...Djack runs on for a place again. But the only thing that will beat TC is a fall.
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No one is crabbing the horse Digger he's a cracking specimen on the upgrade but the form is what it is.

You only need look back to 4 out in last years race when Cue Card Vautor Smad Place and Don Cossack were all in contention and S Conti couldn't even keep up. The animals that finished right up Cue cards backside automatically make the form suspect if not the performance.
 
One only has to think how much more of a challenge it would have been had Vautour not met his untimely end out at grass.
 
I was amazed by the performance, moreso by the fact that good and all that it was, there was room for improvement.

Turning for home, it looked as if Thistlecrack was still gassy - running with the choke out - and a horse as good as Cue Card (another gassy traveller at times) under pressure. My initial impression was Scudamore slowing down into the last cost him 3l or so, but beginning to think that Thistlecrack may have got as far as he could while still barely under control. He didnt finish the race in the same way he was doing so over hurdles last year.

I find it hard to see what horse is talented enough to be near him when he runs out of gas, but if running the same way, it could happen up the hill at Cheltenham. And 5/4 is tight on that basis. I would suspect that if Jenny Pitman trained the second favourite, what tactic could be employed to keep him lit up but if he could ever be switched off i would think he has another 10l on this week's performance. if zipping around Kempton for the next four years is all he does, that would keep me happy.
 
Tanlic said:
No one is crabbing the horse Digger he's a cracking specimen on the upgrade but the form is what it is.

You only need look back to 4 out in last years race when Cue Card Vautor Smad Place and Don Cossack were all in contention and S Conti couldn't even keep up. The animals that finished right up Cue cards backside automatically make the form suspect if not the performance.
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I think people will crab the form based on the paper result...but that doesnt really take into account how easily he has done it. Did he ever get up to full pelt? I don't think he did. You really want to see something try and get him off his heels but I'm really not sure there is anything. Coneygree of 2 years ago would have been a spectacle. Djack doesnt have the pace. Don C has a massive ask to come back...does VL have that potential pace. I find myself wondering just how good the horse could be....and only wish we still had Kauto and Denman as that would have been a dream race. Lastly Tom gave him a really top class ride and I've never been a fan but he really impressed me with his relaxed manner whilst still teaching the horse.
 
Funny thing is and I can't explain why I don't question the other Superstars of the day.

Douvan and Altior who run round beating very little yet they get a get out of jail free card.
 
Tizzard made the comment that Brennan 'got there 3 fences too soon'. Whether that would make any difference or not is impossible to tell. Thistlecrack certainly has an engine, I just wonder if anyone could go with him and he was put under pressure at the fences, whether his jumping would stand up? He took off a mile away from one of the fences round the back, did the same more than once at Cheltenham, at Newbury Scudamore rode him like a show jumper at the fences, very deliberate. If he was mine, I wish, I would give him one more run before I went for Cheltenham.
Kayf Tara's fee doubled on the basis of that win.
 
Was nice to see Thistlecrack do what we thought he could.
Such as shame Vautour wasn't here to put it up to him.
 
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