Manchester Bombing

[G-G]

These cunts are obviously being radicalised so it begs the question have the Intelligence services got undercover officers posing as likely converts. If so I wonder how many of these attacks are being thwarted and can more be done?

Probably, but whatever capability they have now, they need more resources, but no way in the world could they watch everyone who had radical thoughts. It's impossible to watch every single person who might be capable of committing such a vile act.

 

[archie]

The bomber has been identified as Salman Abedi. I'd say he's a good Christian.

Just like every Gearoid is a Christian terrorist. You're better than that, G.
Trump has just sold £110Bn of arms to Saudi and will throw up his arms in horror when they explode in New York.
Manchester is my city and some of the stuff on here is totally out of order. Try to think of the Muslim taxi drivers who ferried people about for free. Try to think of the Muslim nurses and doctors who keep our National Health service going and turned out in droves last night.
If there was any evidence of a concerted attack, there would be an instant ratcheting up of the security level. This hasn't happened so one has to assume that it's a one off. I'd sympathise with anyone chickening out of a U2 concert but it would take more than this to keep me from Jackson Browne in Liverpool next month.

 

[Grey]

Immigration is a huge issue along with the soft underbelly of the authorities in this county but right now I'm being careful what write as I'm full of anger and hatred. It really is time for the authorities to take charge and stop worrying about their human rights. We have to stop these inhumane acts by whatever means necessary.

Very understandable, chef, but it's best to let emotions subside before taking decisions. This is exactly how the Birmingham Six and several other fiascos came about.

Luke, that Mail article is indeed a hatchet job. As you rightly say, Corbyn is offered no right of reply and the Mail are exploiting a family's distress for their own purposes. On the other hand the points made by Ann Travers are authentic and deserve serious consideration.

 

[SlimChance]

Just like every Gearoid is a Christian terrorist. You're better than that, G.
Trump has just sold £110Bn of arms to Saudi and will throw up his arms in horror when they explode in New York.
Manchester is my city and some of the stuff on here is totally out of order. Try to think of the Muslim taxi drivers who ferried people about for free. Try to think of the Muslim nurses and doctors who keep our National Health service going and turned out in droves last night.
If there was any evidence of a concerted attack, there would be an instant ratcheting up of the security level. This hasn't happened so one has to assume that it's a one off. I'd sympathise with anyone chickening out of a U2 concert but it would take more than this to keep me from Jackson Browne in Liverpool next month.

I think you're more than construing what's been said on here. I'm merely saying that these attacks will lead to more votes for extreme view politicians. There are a lot of diverse opinions on this thread.

 

[swedish chef]

Just like every Gearoid is a Christian terrorist. You're better than that, G.
Trump has just sold £110Bn of arms to Saudi and will throw up his arms in horror when they explode in New York.
Manchester is my city and some of the stuff on here is totally out of order. Try to think of the Muslim taxi drivers who ferried people about for free. Try to think of the Muslim nurses and doctors who keep our National Health service going and turned out in droves last night.
If there was any evidence of a concerted attack, there would be an instant ratcheting up of the security level. This hasn't happened so one has to assume that it's a one off. I'd sympathise with anyone chickening out of a U2 concert but it would take more than this to keep me from Jackson Browne in Liverpool next month.

I agree 100/& Archie. My anger is not directed at Muslims just the very few that become radicalised. If they are known to have been radicalised by these security services, then those authorities have to act sooner. I cant bear the thought this act of terrorism could have been prevented.

 

[AliGupter]

I agree 100/& Archie. My anger is not directed at Muslims just the very few that become radicalised. If they are known to have been radicalised by these security services, then those authorities have to act sooner. I cant bear the thought this act of terrorism could have been prevented.

Maybe, but how certain can they be? Remember that the intelligence agencies have to be right every single time to be successful, a terrorist only needs to be right once.

 

[SlimChance]

BBC Anchor: We Have ‘To Get Used To’ Terror Attacks [VIDEO]

http://amp.dailycaller.com/2017/05/23/bbc-anchor-we-have-to-get-used-to-terror-video/

 

[harry]

Threat level raised from "severe" to "critical", meaning a new attack is imminent.

This surely suggests that there are more people in this cell and more vests to be used?

 

[brendanr]

Unfortunate, then, that he's tried to label Shia Iran as the root of all terrorism, when it's clear to anyone with a brain, that it is Sunni groups who are causing all the problems. It's a position which betrays a total ignorance on the subject-matter.

He might call a spade a spade, but that's not much cop if he can't tell the difference between one, and a combine fu*cking harvester.

Best post on this thread. Trump is a moron plain and simple.

Does he not know that the Saudi's are the global exporter of hatred fueled Wahabbism
The Taliban in Pakistan were radicalized by Saudi financed Madrassas.
Thruout Central Asia these "schools" pop up like trolls on the now defunct "will win thread".
All this is common knowledge but hey I suppose when they are giving lavishly to the tune of 100 million to your daughter's proposed!! women entrepreneur fund what's a few more madrassas in such far flung places as Uzbekistan.

 

[archie]

I think you're more than construing what's been said on here. I'm merely saying that these attacks will lead to more votes for extreme view politicians. There are a lot of diverse opinions on this thread.

You make some good points, G, but they are totally undermined by the throwaway line that I responded to. I spent a good part of my working life avoiding IRA bombs but I never tarred all Irish or even all Republicans with the same casually racist brush. Credit to John Major for getting the peace process going but it was a Labour administration (and a Democrat President) who brought home the bacon.

 

[SlimChance]

You make some good points, G, but they are totally undermined by the throwaway line that I responded to. I spent a good part of my working life avoiding IRA bombs but I never tarred all Irish or even all Republicans with the same casually racist brush. Credit to John Major for getting the peace process going but it was a Labour administration (and a Democrat President) who brought home the bacon.

Is it not burying our heads in the sand putting Islamaphobia ahead of these terror attacks.

 

[Warbler]

Unfortunate, then, that he's tried to label Shia Iran as the root of all terrorism, when it's clear to anyone with a brain, that it is Sunni groups who are causing all the problems.

That's been apparent for quite some years now. The other correlation that's starting to emerge though is the frequency with which perps are of North African extraction (usually second generation). It's increasingly looking like a mistake to characterise this as middle east (Syria/ Iraq) although I have little doubt in accepting the role played by Saudi, Qatari and Kuwaiti funders, and willful blind eye that greedy politcians turn to it whilst they set about trying to frame other countries.

The actual assilants however are heavily skewing north african (as this one was)

 

[BennyB]

The key to this seems to be stopping radicalisation of young people. The problem is I have no idea how to stop this. If the security services have identified people who have been radicalised we could deport them, but surely that just increases the likelihood of them coming back to commit an attack.

So we need to target the ones doing the radicalising. But how do you do that?

 

[Grasshopper]

So we need to target the ones doing the radicalising. But how do you do that?

The most effective way is to heavily-compromise their civil liberties, however, this cannot be applied to a specific subset of civilisation (e.g. radical preachers), as that would be illegal.

Unless, of course, you changed the law........which you might be inclined to progress, if you were (say) redacting the superiority of the European Courts, and had a hard-right Government with a huge mandate, in charge of legislative policy.

 

[Ivantheterrible]

I find the lazy semantics that couch the media coverage of these sorts of atrocities quite telling in relation to our seeming inability or stubborn reluctance to look for potential solutions via the most obvious starting point – the cause.

‘Random and senseless’ acts, I heard again this morning.

How, by any gauge or measure, can these events be deemed to be random?

Targets are stealth-selected for maximum resonance and emotive impact. “You bomb our kids, we’ll bomb yours”. Nothing random about that. Huge symbolic statement.

To call them ‘senseless’, again suggests some sort of spontaneous, indiscriminate ‘lashing out’ perpetrated by brain-washed, despotic robots. It denies them an intelligence, in the literal sense of the word of course. We label these people as ‘mad’ or ‘evil’ (as by some definitions they very well might be) because then we don’t have to think about what drives them. And let’s face it, we do have to be quite driven to strap explosives to our own body, stand next to a group of children in a public place and commit suicide and mass murder simultaneously. That isn’t random and it’s not senseless. It’s planned and it’s executed for a very specific reason.

Our rightful revulsion then tends to obfuscate rather than illuminate. It also hinders rounded, considered appraisal of what we need to do to move towards a solution.

If we drop bigger bombs more frequently we feed the martyr machine and their legions swell further.

Negotiation, diplomacy or any attempt to locate potentially fertile common ground is impossible. The ideological gap is unbreachable.

We have to look beyond the horror and think in the longer term about how this ‘world view’ can be evolved, if you like, out of the thinking that lies behind the acts.

We can do this. We are intelligent enough. We just need some political, cerebral muscle behind it and a few major players to be brave enough to depolarise the issue and treat it as you would an apolitical threat to world order or humanity.

That doesn't mean we abandon our efforts to contain the problem, pursue those responsible and seek justice for their victims.

We just can't continue to do this at the expense of some 'big thinking'.

Anyone who takes any element of this as being in any way sympathetic or apologist in relation to the perpetrators of this terrible crime are badly missing my point.

But this isn’t going to go away any time soon. And all the Trumpist tub-thumping in the world, the eyes for eyes, the teeth for teeth, won’t move us one centimetre further down the track.

 

[swedish chef]

https://iqballatif.newsvine.com/_ne...ing-version-of-morally-bankrupt-trumps-vision

 

[Grasshopper]

Excellent post, Ivan, though I take issue with this bit:

We can do this. We are intelligent enough.

I don't believe it is possible to "intelligent" our way out of this, because the 'other side' is driven by faith rather than judgement. I think we can develop more robust coping-mechanisms to contain the problem, but the Islamist mind-set does not avail itself to intellectual persuasion. Indeed, independence of thought is highly-discouraged in radical Islamist circles, because the only truth is Allah's truth, and anything else is heresy.

As you have said yourself, the idealogical gap is unbreachable, hence we can never reach an accommodation/understanding with an entity like ISIS, no matter what intellect we bring to the argument. The perspectives of the West and Radical Islam are a clash-of-worlds that can never be reconciled, and whatever measures we take to mitigate the problem, we seem destined to be containing this as best we can, for many years (and probably decades) to come.

 

[Ivantheterrible]

Excellent post, Ivan, though I take issue with this bit:



I don't believe it is possible to "intelligent" our way out of this, because the 'other side' is driven by faith rather than judgement. I think we can develop more robust coping-mechanisms to contain the problem, but the Islamist mind-set does not avail itself to intellectual persuasion. Indeed, independence of thought is highly-discouraged in radical Islamist circles, because the only truth is Allah's truth, and anything else is heresy.

I tend to agree and if I’m advocating anything here it is ‘strategic patience’ if that makes sense. Ideological shifts and softening of historically forged entrenchments do occur.

Maybe the realignment needs to be multilateral. If we are naïve enough to think that this will simply be a case of us sitting around waiting for Islam to ‘see the light’ and hop on the bus to ‘civilisation’ we are going to be very disappointed.

I don't do all the Western self-hate stuff but some element of self-examination surely has to be in order at some point.


As you have said yourself, the idealogical gap is unbreachable, hence we can never reach an accommodation/understanding with an entity like ISIS, no matter what intellect we bring to the argument. The perspectives of the West and Radical Islam are a clash-of-worlds that can never be reconciled, and whatever measures we take to mitigate the problem, we seem destined to be containing this as best we can, for many years (and probably decades) to come.

 

[Ivantheterrible]

Sorry, messed that up....

I tend to agree and if I’m advocating anything here it is ‘strategic patience’ if that makes sense. Ideological shifts and softenings of historically forged entrenchments do occur.

Maybe the realignment needs to be multilateral. If we are naïve enough to think that this will simply be a case of us sitting around waiting for Islam to ‘see the light’ or think that we can bomb them back onto the bus to ‘civilisation’ we are going to be very disappointed.

I don't do all the Western self-hate stuff but some element of self-examination surely has to be in order at some point.

 

[frontrunner]

Excellent post, Ivan, though I take issue with this bit:



I don't believe it is possible to "intelligent" our way out of this, because the 'other side' is driven by faith rather than judgement. I think we can develop more robust coping-mechanisms to contain the problem, but the Islamist mind-set does not avail itself to intellectual persuasion. Indeed, independence of thought is highly-discouraged in radical Islamist circles, because the only truth is Allah's truth, and anything else is heresy.

As you have said yourself, the idealogical gap is unbreachable, hence we can never reach an accommodation/understanding with an entity like ISIS, no matter what intellect we bring to the argument. The perspectives of the West and Radical Islam are a clash-of-worlds that can never be reconciled, and whatever measures we take to mitigate the problem, we seem destined to be containing this as best we can, for many years (and probably decades) to come.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you Nick and as well as going on for decades its going to get worse as well. The Manchester attack is a very worrying development and I think there a lot the public aren't being told. The ability to make a feasible explosive vest capable of such carnage in the uk is a lot different than mowing folk down in a vehicle or randomly stabbing passerbys. This could be quite a big cell or a collections of cells and I will be very surprised if there is not a lot more similar attacks. The pressure really is on the intelligent agencies to find the bomb maker and destroy the cell (cells). The muslim community also must do its upmost to supply information and report anything suspicious if We are to get these crack pots out of our society.

 

[Neal1962]

If they want a 'war' come out and fight an army, not blow up civilians. They are cowards of the worst kind, and if they really believed in their 'cause' they would fight like the men they claim to be, but clearly are not.

Isn't it views like this which lead to the invasion of Iraq and the rise of ISIS.

 

[Neal1962]

How many more incidents do we need in the UK before people start voting to the right?

Can I just comment on the OP here, it is a silly statement to begin with. No political party wants this, and voting one way or the other will have no affect on these "losers*"

Luke, you mustn't let these "losers*" put you off things which you would have done anyway, if this hadn't have happened. Of course we must be extra vigilant but we must carry on with our everyday lives, we owe it to the victims. It was what our Parents and Grandparents did during the war and what happened after the IRA bombing of Manchester in the 90's.

If anyone likes to donate blood on here, then go to your local blood donation centre and offer to donate. I'm already a donor, (been one for 5 years now) but regret that I didn't do it sooner.


*As described by President Trump

 

[Flagship uberalles]

So immigration is nothing to do with it then...

Note the part about refugee status. Refugee does not equal economic migrant. The above article would seem to indicate they were admitted to the country under the Geneva Convention.

What change to the current immigration policy would have prevented any of the attacks on UK soil? If there's a link between how he got radicalised and immigration, then you may have a point. Haven't seen one yet though.

 

[SlimChance]

The key to this seems to be stopping radicalisation of young people. The problem is I have no idea how to stop this. If the security services have identified people who have been radicalised we could deport them, but surely that just increases the likelihood of them coming back to commit an attack.

So we need to target the ones doing the radicalising. But how do you do that?

Deport them where? He was a U.K. citizen. Now had they stopped the parents coming in...

 

[G-G]

Threat level raised from "severe" to "critical", meaning a new attack is imminent.

This surely suggests that there are more people in this cell and more vests to be used?

And/or there are more cells and they have intelligence about other people/possible targets, not necessarily people working with this individual, and if there were I suspect they have already left the country and are out of reach. They seem to be taking a long time to arrest anyone else other than his brother ( assuming it is his brother).