NH Racing in Crisis

barjon said:
Yes, that gives them the whip hand to the detriment of the sport. Like the capital B in business - I doubt that Cheltenham stuck on the extra day because they thought it was in the best interests of the sport?
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Not sure NH racing would exist without bookmakers. In parade rings before a race almost all those leading horses are wearing at least one item of bookmaker sponsored clothing and even the horses rugs usually carry a bookmaker logo

So no surprise IMO that the bookies call the tune

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viking said:
Not sure NH racing would exist without bookmakers. In parade rings before a race almost all those leading horses are wearing at least one item of bookmaker sponsored clothing and even the horses rugs usually carry a bookmaker logo

So no surprise IMO that the bookies call the tune

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I don’t disagree with that, Viking, but it has meant that decisions are increasingly made to cater for their interests rather than what is good for the sport.
 
barjon said:
I don’t disagree with that, Viking, but it has meant that decisions are increasingly made to cater for their interests rather than what is good for the sport.
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It's been that way ever since Peter Savill sold out to them.
 
I've had enough of this game, you know: it's becoming more and more boring with these ridiculous amount of NRs. The 2 in the only race I backed in today give the reason as 'going'. For god sake, after all of the rain we've had, what did they expect the going to be?! NR's, ridiculously small fields, R4's - it's a F****** joke and I'm not laughing. It just gets worse and worse and nobody does anything about it.

The disgraceful decision to introduce 48 decs in order to sell race cards overseas has had a terrible effect on racing and the thing is that those overseas punters will suffer the same amount of Nr's as we do here - no one cares about the everyday punter at all. The trainers accepted the 48 hr rule grudgingly and ever since I suspect they've abusing the system as they wish. I sometimes wonder if the bookies offer payments to trainers for them not to run their horses once they've been declared.

The bookies are in clover, aren't they? they rule the roost. so many of the races that they hate the most - with the 'dead 8' runners (for 3 places) - are reduced to 6-7 runners (2 places only) usually on the day of the race so that the ordinary joe sees all their studying and selections going to pot.

I see a time coming where NH no longer exists and we're left with tons of flat racing, and an increasing amount of AW meetings with races on a card mostly cl 5&6 sprints (quick turnover, more races).

I recently emailed the BHA and asked them to supply me a comparison between the number of nr's before and after the 48 hr decs rule - they didn't reply after me sending that email time and time again. They just don't care.

I bet less and less.

Pathetic
 
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Couldn't agree more, especially with them being allowed to withdraw horses stating "going" (then watch them hosing up a couple of weeks later on similar ground).

Grrrr!
 
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And yet we see French NH racing thriving with excellent prize money and fields. Of course, we won't stoop low enough to look at how they do it and learn. No, after all, we know best and we won't be doing with that Mutuel rubbish - ooh no - Nanny state, can't do that: free enterprise is the only way.
 
Let's not forget dolled - off fences because of the sun: same sun same courses every year. You'd think they'd have come up with a moveable, lightweight sunscreen by now. No. Beyond their wit so we have races with half the obstacles taken out.

The list just goes on and on, doesn't it?
 
yorick said:
And yet we see French NH racing thriving with excellent prize money and fields. Of course, we won't stoop low enough to look at how they do it and learn. No, after all, we know best and we won't be doing with that Mutuel rubbish - ooh no - Nanny state, can't do that: free enterprise is the only way.
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Funnily enough I've just been reading a book about the UK aircraft industry in the 1950s and they say almost exactly the same thing.
 
The 48hr decs are a godsend to serious students of the form. I don't look at midweek racing so probably don't qualify as a 'serious' student but I did (and am slowly getting back into it) spend a lot of time on the weekend cards and having that extra time was certainly something I felt I benefitted from. I don't know enough about midweek stuff to comment on it but I don't think weekend racing is all that affected by non-runners.
 
yorick said:
And yet we see French NH racing thriving with excellent prize money and fields. Of course, we won't stoop low enough to look at how they do it and learn. No, after all, we know best and we won't be doing with that Mutuel rubbish - ooh no - Nanny state, can't do that: free enterprise is the only way.
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For God’s sake, yo, doncha know we’re world leaders - as we seem to be in everything according to the politicians - and you should just thank your lucky stars and stop being a moaning Minnie. You’ll be telling us there are potholes in the roads next - as if.
 
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yorick said:
The disgraceful decision to introduce 48 decs in order to sell race cards overseas has had a terrible effect on racing and the thing is that those overseas punters will suffer the same amount of Nr's as we do here - no one cares about the everyday punter at all
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Totll agree withthis, the 48 hour decs add nothing of value to the racing.
 
I've written this in my emails to the BHA but they respond with how much they've made from overseas sales of race cards. Not really that much, though, in the scheme of things
 
Not seeing where 48 hr decs are detrimental to racing - at the end of the day, we'd end up with the same fields,either way.
 
But we don't (if I understand you).

When a field is declared two days earlier, before the weather is known, there could be, say, 12 runners. If the weather changes the next day, whereas before the changes, a trainer could decide not to declare, with the decs now, that gives that trainer no choice but to declare the horse. Of those 12 runners, come race day, if the going's changed we will see NR's on the morning of the race. With the old rule, they wouldn't have been declared in the first place.

Yes, in the old days, we still had Nr's if there was a late change in going, now there just pages of NR's, the vast majority of which cite 'going' as the reason.
 
Desert Orchid said:
The 48hr decs are a godsend to serious students of the form. I don't look at midweek racing so probably don't qualify as a 'serious' student but I did (and am slowly getting back into it) spend a lot of time on the weekend cards and having that extra time was certainly something I felt I benefitted from. I don't know enough about midweek stuff to comment on it but I don't think weekend racing is all that affected by non-runners.
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Really? Because, with me, I'll study the form of the Saturady races on a Thursday and there are still a lot of NR's anyway.

Do you not find this?
 
No, I don't, Yorick.

Perhaps when the weather is totally foul as it is at the moment you might get a few more non-runners but that's partly offset by second-preference declarations.

Most of the time the weather is predictable, even days in advance. Not totally accurate, but largely predictable, and most entries take it into account.

I actually often check for non-runners on Saturday mornings on the RP site and am often surprised how FEW non-runners there actually are.

I think of the races I studied last Saturday there were only two non-runners and once was known by lunchtime on the Friday.

I'd say you were just as likely to get as many non-runners in the middle of a settled summer's Flat racing as during an average winter.

Didn't ITV/C4 and the BHA produce figures some years back, about a year after the 48-hr decs were introduced and they showed there was only something like 1% more non-runners under the new scheme (which was originally intended to be experimental).

Can I throw the question back at you, Yorick? You say you study Saturday's races on a Thursday (as do I - I've just finished this Saturday's figures and will collate them and type them up tomorrow) so don't you find you have time to dig a bit deeper, check up trainers'records in the races / at the tracks, etc? I know I do. I also have the time to collate the figures in a more meaningful way [for me] and study the betting.

Before, I always felt I was putting myself under pressure to get it all done between 7pm on a Friday, when I got home from work - if anyone wants to rile me they can claim teachers only work part time - and something like 2am on the Saturday, and I sometimes felt I was having to focus on more recent form most of the time whereas in a lot of the big Saturday handicaps you have to go back a bit further because horses are being run down the park to manipulate their mark. I never believed there were any good shortcuts to avoid this. Saturday mornings were spent deciding what to bet and with which bookies, usually while watching the morning racing programme. Sometimes I still do this with longshots but most of the time my bets are on by about 4pm on the Friday and that gives me time to enjoy my fish supper and a few cans of Stella Artois and even a bit of telly with Mrs O.

I couldn't do that before.

Definitely a godsend for me.
 
I admire your dedication and work ethic but I really cannot see how it can take all that amount of time.
How many races do you actually study?

I realise that my approach is completely different to yours and I am by no means criticising.

I spend probably two hours evening before or early morning studying which usually gives me a long list of about 10 races with a possible bet. My initial race selections are attained from trainer stats, so I then look for any negatives for the relevant runner. This rapidly gets me down to bets of usually no more than five per day.
 
yorick said:
But we don't (if I understand you).

When a field is declared two days earlier, before the weather is known, there could be, say, 12 runners. If the weather changes the next day, whereas before the changes, a trainer could decide not to declare, with the decs now, that gives that trainer no choice but to declare the horse. Of those 12 runners, come race day, if the going's changed we will see NR's on the morning of the race. With the old rule, they wouldn't have been declared in the first place.

Yes, in the old days, we still had Nr's if there was a late change in going, now there just pages of NR's, the vast majority of which cite 'going' as the reason.
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Maybe I'm not explaining clearly,but it does seem elementary to me?
weather changes, horses duly withdrawn would not have run anyway,regardless of when they were declared
 
But what if the weather changes the day after the declaration? Maybe the ground was g/sft on a Thursday for a race to be run on Saturday. On the Friday the ground changes to soft. The horse is already declared. Under the old system, if the decs were made on a Friday, the horse wouldn't be declared for the Saturday race. So the night before when we do our studying, we'd be much more sure the race wouldn't cut up the next day, ruining all our form study. No? The way the weather is in these islands, it can change overnight let alone two days before.
 
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Hi Des.

I am really surprised with your comments about NR's. I can't find the post I made not long ago on another forum about a day when there were something like fifteen NR's at a single meeting, all down to 'going'. Am I imagining this whole affair? Your comments make me doubt myself but then again no since I've been following this whole issue for years and it's not because I want to. If it's true what you say about the going and NR's, then I've been having hallucinations all these years.

In answer to your question: there are times when I will study a race of particular interest on a Thursday but mostly it will be the night or day before and I still have time to 'deep dive' with the form and all the stats.

Where I come from Stella is often referred to as 'Wife Beater'. Have you heard that one?

I'm a real ale man meself. Or rum. Have you ever tried my fav tipple: Goslings Black Seal 151 Bermuda rum? Only on occasions mind on account of its strength.
 
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It can change the same morning,too.
Put it like this; the trainer knows the horse - if it's got a sound chance on the ground he'll run ,if it's out for a prep,he'll probably still run - neither's likely to change the result,imho.
 
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yorick said:
Hi Des.

I am really surprised with your comments about NR's. I can't find the post I made not long ago on another forum about a day when there were something like fifteen NR's at a single meeting, all down to 'going'. Am I imagining this whole affair? Your comments make me doubt myself but then again no since I've been following this whole issue for years and it's not because I want to. If it's true what you say about the going and NR's, then I've been having hallucinations all these years.

In answer to your question: there are times when I will study a race of particular interest on a Thursday but mostly it will be the night or day before and I still have time to 'deep dive' with the form and all the stats.

Where I come from Stella is often referred to as 'Wife Beater'. Have you heard that one?

I'm a real ale man meself. Or rum. Have you ever tried my fav tipple: Goslings Black Seal 151 Bermuda rum? Only on occasions mind on account of its strength.
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Maybe we're studying different races?

I can't recall any time since the 48s came in when I've thought, "Fvck this" because of non-runners. There's been the odd day when the weather has been worse than forecast and there's been a stack of non-runners but it doesn't strike me as often.Maybe I'm wrong about that. If so then those NRs haven't bugged me.
 
yorick said:
But what if the weather changes the day after the declaration? Maybe the ground was g/sft on a Thursday for a race to be run on Saturday. On the Friday the ground changes to soft. The horse is already declared. Under the old system, if the decs were made on a Friday, the horse wouldn't be declared for the Saturday race. So the night before when we do our studying, we'd be much more sure the race wouldn't cut up the next day, ruining all our form study. No? The way the weather is in these islands, it can change overnight let alone two days before.
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I commented on the earlier post, the thing that infuriates me is seeing "going" cited as the reason for withdrawal. I'd like to see something like "the trainer believes that the horse would be unsuited by going worse than good to soft" (ie that the type of going is stated).
 
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