Northern Rock

Yes, read quite abit Lehmans at the weekend.

This was a thought provoking article in the Evening Standard yesterday. Well I found it interesting anyway.


Banks' parallel universe has collided with reality

Anthony Hilton
18.03.08 Related Articles
Bank crisis hits home loans

With stock markets in meltdown and half the world's banks too scared to lend money to the other half it seemed curiously appropriate for a headhunter to say, as one did the other day, that two-thirds of the people working in the City had just received bigger bonuses this year than last, for their work in the past 12 months. It somehow seemed to underline the disconnection between those working in the financial world and the rest of us. Given the damage that has been done to the financial system, what horrors need to be inflicted before it really does make an impact?

This seems to confirm that finance occupies a parallel universe from the rest of us. Banks and bankers started life as servants of the economic system but somewhere along the way they became detached.

Driven by greed, they began to do deals for no other reason than that they could be done, and to invent products for no other reason than that they could be sold. The only criterion for success was an ability to separate fools from their money.

In the process they built a monstrous inverted pyramid of speculation and borrowing - and of course commission - which balanced precariously on only the smallest wedge of genuine economic activity. Now it is beginning to fall, it is a very long way down.

Naturally those receiving the bonuses will say, and with justification, that the losses are not their fault - that they do different things in different areas of the markets. And that is of course true, as far as it goes.

From the outside, though, it looks rather like someone in a rowing boat saying that the leak is not at their end. It rests even more uneasily that they continue to pass Go and collect their £2 million bonus while taxpayers in Britain and America have to pick up the bills for the damage their deeds have done.

It has been obvious to insiders for some time that we would be unlikely to get through this crisis without some bank or other going bust. The New York firm of Bear Stearns, which was rescued over the weekend, is thought by some to fill that bill but it does not really.

First, it is not a bank in the recognised sense, second, few outside the financial markets have ever heard of it; third, and this is the key point, its losses though big enough to end its days of independence are as nothing compared with what has been lost by the likes of Citigroup in America or UBS of Switzerland. As a firm, its role was to bring on the oranges at half time, not take part in the penalty shoot-out.

But its abrupt demise has spooked the markets, and for good reason. The price paid by JP Morgan Chase for the entire business of Bear Stearns was derisory - some two and a half per cent of the assets on the firm's books. If that is a genuine reflection of how bad things are or what these assets are really worth, then things are more massively worse than even the pessimists feared. So a shock like that inevitably raises questions about who will be next, makes people think no one is safe and sends the shares of the likely suspects crashing round the globe.

Second, it underlines that the authoritiesfor all their efforts are not in control-of this crisis, because of course they are in the wrong universe along with the rest of us. Central bankers' traditional instruments of control are rooted in the real not the virtual world. They are like the toddler furiously driving one of those coin-operated toy cars found outside supermarkets. They think they are steering but in fact their controls are not attached to anything. They make no difference to the speed or the direction of the car.

Nor are they likely to. All the authorities can do is pump money into the system. That works if the reason people are unwilling to lend is that they have no money themselves. It does not work when the reason people don't lend is they don't think they will get the money back. What started as the former, a liquidity crisis, is now the latter - one fuelled by doubts about solvency and fear of widespread bank failure.

The other odd thing in all this is how detached it still all seems from the real world. The screens run red but the sky outside is still blue. True it is slower to sell a house, harder to get a mortgage, and shops are seeing fewer customers flashing the plastic but by and large the nonfinancial world shows little sign of stress.

Unfortunately, this might only be a matter of time. The UK economy is in so many ways a smaller version of the US that trouble looks impossible to avoid. We have the same personal debt mountain, the same house price bubble, the same heavy involvement of finance in the overall economy and the same absence of room to manoeuvre. We see trouble coming but we can't get out of the way.

As the banks cut back on lending, consumer spending will slow and growth will slump. As that pain spreads personally, bankruptcy will mount and we will be very lucky to avoid a plunge in house prices.

Our politicians say that won't happen - witness Chancellor Alistair Darling in last week's Budget - but interestingly the foreign exchanges tell a different story. The exchange rate is a country's share price in that it reflects what other detached observers think of us. And at the moment they don't like what they see. The pound has plunged against every currency except the equally troubled dollar. Indeed it has fallen by 15 per cent in the past few months, which is more than at any time since 1993 when we were ejected from the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

What all this means is that the crisis which has been rumbling away for the past eight months has taken a decided turn for the worse and gained a new and still more terrifying momentum. Last time this happened in the United States, 20 years ago with its Savings and Loans crisis, the government eventually shouldered the losses of its entire building society movement at a cost of untold billions. It is significant that in recent days for the first time people have begun to suggest that something similar is needed this time - nothing less than for the US government to buy all those distressed assets so banks will be solvent again and confidence can return to the system.

That such a proposal is now being seriously suggested shows that the parallel universe of finance has collided with the real world to devastating effect. The cost of such an action is beyond comprehension - only exceeded perhaps by the cost of not doing it. But that's what happens when worlds collide.
 
Kathy, surely at a time like this it makes sense to ignore rumours? Anyway, turning to the piece of "journalism"

half the world's banks too scared to lend money to the other half

Ridiculous and untrue statement. Why can these jokers not tell the truth?

two-thirds of the people working in the City had just received bigger bonuses this year than last, for their work in the past 12 months

Corporate profits in City firms in 2007 were greater than in 2006. Bonuses will be cut in 2008.

what horrors need to be inflicted before it really does make an impact

A lot of people will lose their jobs;is that not enough for you, Mr. Hilton?

The exchange rate is a country's share price in that it reflects what other detached observers think of us

Now you're just getting silly.

___________________________________________

There are a lot of strange things going on at the moment, but this article just perpetuates people's lack of understanding of finance by indulging in exaggaration and misrepresentation.

However, you are right to be worried, Kathy.
 
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people do not work in the financial sector. Newspaper reports by journalists, articles published on the internet and of course the TV news is very often how Joe Public usually finds out about what is "evidently" going on in thiese troubled times.

I understand from what you have said on this forum that you work in the Financial sector, consequently you will rubbish a lot (not all) of what what is published and you cannot blame people wanting to try and find out what the real truth is and reading what journalists say is how many achieve this.

The banks are hardly going to go public and tell us what is really going on behind the scenes are they?

Despite your own personal opinion about me, I do not listen to all rumours.

How many times were we told that Northern Rock would never be nationalised and look what happened. Sometimes the old adage "no smoke without fire" is true.
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Mar 19 2008, 02:58 PM
Despite your own personal opinion about me, I do not listen to all rumours.
I think it's the repeating of them when politically expedient that gets on the t*ts of people who actually work in the sector, Kathy.
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Mar 19 2008, 02:58 PM
The banks are hardly going to go public and tell us what is really going on behind the scenes are they?
Well I think they would do a lot better a job than some geebag off the Evening Standard.

How anybody can get away with saying that a country's FX rate is like its share price is beyond me. And it reflects what observers think of a country???!!!???

No mention about the enhanced competitiveness of a weak British pound. Of course not, people don't want to read good news and it doesn't sell papers.

There were actually a couple of prescient points in the article, but it is a shambles to be saying things like that.

Touché, Arch.
 
Nobody can avoid talking about it now Archie, as it is now effecting millions of people in this country and it isn't going to get any better in the immediate future. Very easy for people within in the industry to spout, it's all rubbish or you don't understand, which may well be true, but it's serious enough that people should be sitting up and listening.

Higher mortgages, inflation rising, higher taxes, pension concerns and for the first time in a long time the man in the street can see that something is very wrong at the moment.
 
With all due respect, Kathy, the man on the street should take one look at the articles you copy and paste to this site and ignore them.

There are serious problems, most of which you clearly understand.

But very little balance comes from any of the articles you reproduce, which is the concern I have.

Higher mortgages? Well if house prices are falling and interest rates are being cut, that is not going to happen.

Rising inflation? That is a big concern, but I think the BoE has bigger fish to fry at the moment. Most of the inflation is being driven by commodity prices, anyway.

Higher taxes? Is that always a bad thing? I think you will find that the average UK citizen pays less tax as a percentage of income than they have done in modern times. Of course there are indirect tax increases, so it is hard to know if taxes are higher.

Pension concerns? This has been rumbling for the last 10 years.
 
If only it was that simplistic, Btb. Those working in the financial sector probably know far more than they are letting on. Why would they let on what's really happening? Their bonuses are directly linked (in many cases) to the profits presumably. shrug:: It will all have to come to roost eventually.

Much of the blame for todays financial mess must land clearly at the feet of the greedy banks. There is going to be one hell of a rollercoaster ride in the coming months and as much money as can be thrown at it, it is like a runaway train that is not intending to stop at any stations en route however much money is thrown at the problem. Many banks are just not able to reveal the extent of their liabilities. The whole sector clearly lacks confidence and as soon as confidence is rocked, as it is in the USA, the rest of the world soon follows.

Todays rumours about HBOS no doubt emulated from someone working in the financial sector which lead to a lot of "trading" until the rumour was "officially" rubbished. Convenient.

I know, before you say it, with all due respect I clearly know nothing.... :)
 
Much of the blame for todays financial mess must land clearly at the feet of the greedy banks

Yes but the real cancer was the role of "professional services".
The credit rating agencies who were so dependent on the business of their banking clients that their independent judgement went out of the window

Pathetic really

Direct parrallel with the role of Andersons auditors with Enron. Very similar. Hubris and arrogance and smug lazy thinking

Fortunately Andersons went bust and we can hope that the same fate is in store for S&P and the like. They desreve it

(For the record, this does not include commercial rating agencies like D&B)
 
HBOS PR machine went into overdrive today to reassure not just the city but the staff. Nearly all permanent staff have share options as part of their reward package and as you can imagine morale is not great.
 
Originally posted by betsmate@Mar 19 2008, 06:05 PM
HBOS PR machine went into overdrive today to reassure not just the city but the staff. Nearly all permanent staff have share options as part of their reward package and as you can imagine morale is not great.
I'd be really interested in whether that's inside knowledge.
 
No reply. I'm not surprised because it's complete rubbish.

I'm surprised and disappointed that a moderator would stoop to the tactic loved by the Evening Standard, Express Newspapers and Kathy that, if you spread enough unsubstatiated rumours, one of them will eventually turn out to be true.
 
Archie, I missed your post earlier this morning, it was not a deliberate avoidance of your question.

I don't consider it inside information at all. HBOS is one of a number of companies that I work for. Yesterday I was on site whilst the internal group comms were being fired out alongside the external ones and was chatting to a few of my colleagues about the ramifications of the share price on their total reward packages.

As an employee and shareholder myself, I am very hopeful that the content of those comms and not their manner or style is the one that is best reflective of the situation.
 
Originally posted by archie@Mar 20 2008, 01:03 PM
No reply. I'm not surprised because it's complete rubbish.

I'm surprised and disappointed that a moderator would stoop to the tactic loved by the Evening Standard, Express Newspapers and Kathy that, if you spread enough unsubstatiated rumours, one of them will eventually turn out to be true.
This thread just funnier and funnier! Archie, what are you on about?

I must admit I am flattered that my name appears alongside a couple of national newspapers. :laughing:
 
Originally posted by betsmate@Mar 20 2008, 01:16 PM
Archie, I missed your post earlier this morning, it was not a deliberate avoidance of your question.

I don't consider it inside information at all. HBOS is one of a number of companies that I work for. Yesterday I was on site whilst the internal group comms were being fired out alongside the external ones and was chatting to a few of my colleagues about the ramifications of the share price on their total reward packages.

As an employee and shareholder myself, I am very hopeful that the content of those comms and not their manner or style is the one that is best reflective of the situation.
Have to be brief but I also work at HBOS and your comments totally misrepresent the situation here.
 
Fair enough. My comments represent only my opinion and not the company as a whole, in a legal disclaimer kinda way :)
 
I think everyone is aware that this is a tough time for anyone involved in the banking sector and that is bound to take its toll.

Like I say, I am hopeful that HBOS is as well positioned as it says that it to weather the storm. It is in both our interests if nothing else.
 
Originally posted by archie@Mar 20 2008, 01:33 PM
Have to be brief but I also work at HBOS and your comments totally misrepresent the situation here.
I was going to ask where you worked Archie as I had a feeling you were yet another one that worked in the "industry". Thanks for confirming that. :)
 
Beautiful inverted commas, there.

I am of the opinion that this is a natural correction; it may end up being a good thing as I think it will smarten regulators to the murkier problems in banking.

The FSA are already talking about punishing those on the street that start rumours of the type that Kathy has been defending herself for posting hours after they have been rubbished. There has been far too much thrashing and cashing / pumping and dumping in the last few months.

The credit products that have created the mess in the first place should be more cleverly audited, marked to market and controlled.

The rating agencies should be given a rocket up the jacksy for some of the ratings they gave to this sh!t.

Similarly, I am very hopeful that the Irish regulator will come out with a statement confirming the rude health of Irish banks' balance sheets to calm the gutter press down. And my knowledge of that health is insider knowledge
 
Originally posted by Bar the Bull@Mar 20 2008, 01:48 PM
Beautiful inverted commas, there.

I am of the opinion that this is a natural correction; it may end up being a good thing as I think it will smarten regulators to the murkier problems in banking.

The FSA are already talking about punishing those on the street that start rumours of the type that Kathy has been defending herself for posting hours after they have been rubbished. There has been far too much thrashing and cashing / pumping and dumping in the last few months.

The credit products that have created the mess in the first place should be more cleverly audited, marked to market and controlled.

The rating agencies should be given a rocket up the jacksy for some of the ratings they gave to this sh!t.

Similarly, I am very hopeful that the Irish regulator will come out with a statement confirming the rude health of Irish banks' balance sheets to calm the gutter press down. And my knowledge of that health is insider knowledge

Those that are to be punished for the HBOS rumours presumably work in the financial industry - probably made a quick million in a bit of quick trading before people in the know got wise to what was going on. Many banks were (are) greedy and they only have themselves to blame for the problems that are now rife and possibly getting worse. How can lending vast amounts of money to people with no credit history be a viable business proposition. Grab, grab, grab. As for this self certification - what on earth did the banks hope to achieve here? Then the 120% mortgages - go on have a house and a few extra thousand to furnish it, and while you are at it go and have a nice holiday. shrug::

Those greedy banks and building societies are getting what they deserve and as much as I feel sorry for those that will possibly lose their jobs in the longer term, if the banks had not been so greedy in the first place - would those US and UK banks that have fallen into troubled times be in this position now. Grab, grab, grab. Just look at the farce with bank charges. Long overdue but people got wise to it and banks had to pay the money back to all of those that were so blatantly robbed.

I do not need to continually defend what I am posting. I am only posting what I think or what I have read. Agree or disagree I really don't care.

BtB, as you clearly spend nearly every other comment you make about me, telling me I know absolutely nothing, whether I do or not, that's not going to stop me posting. :) Nice to hear the situation in Irish banks is so stable, Btb. Long may that continue.
 
Bank bosses to meet governor King

Courtesy of The BBC


The bosses of major UK banks will be meeting Bank of England Governor Mervyn King shortly.
They are likely to tell Mr King that he needs to do more to reassure markets that the central bank will provide extra financial help if it is needed.

Ahead of the meeting, the Bank raised the funds available to lenders.

It is adding an extra £5bn to its normal weekly funds available to commercial banks, with £11bn now on offer at its weekly cash auction.

This week's additional funding, released on Thursday, was three times oversubscribed.

The Bank said an extra £5bn a week would be released at least until its next monthly meeting on interest rates on 9 April.

'Strong confidence'

Senior executives from the big five banks - HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays, Lloyds TSB and HBOS - are expected to meet Bank officials.

The banks are said to want Mr King to guarantee that if any UK lender suffered a cash shortage, it would provide whatever finance was needed.

There has been a series of completely unfounded rumours about UK financial institutions in the London market over the last few days, sometimes accompanied by short-selling


Angela Knight, chief executive of the British Bankers Association, told the BBC's Today programme that she was confident the Bank would take action.

"The Bank of England is very keen to ensure that we have good strong confidence in our market - after all we've got good strong banks," she said.

"We're all facing as I say a particularly unusual situation in this credit crunch."
 
Originally posted by betsmate@Mar 20 2008, 01:35 PM
Fair enough. My comments represent only my opinion and not the company as a whole, in a legal disclaimer kinda way :)
Likewise, fair enough.
We neither of us know in which area the other works and HBOS is such a large conglomerate that different areas are bound to be affected differently. What I was really objecting to was your use of the 'wheeling out the big guns' cliche in terms of staff. There were, of course, emails flying about but the Groupnet (HBOS Intranet) contributions seemed quite mild, merely statements from Andy Hornby and others regarding the ludicrous nature of some of the claims plus quotes from (supposedly) respected analysts also rubbishing the rumours. I think it's the least that staff should expect. Today I couldn't find one person with any concern at all for the immediate future.
I'd guess that you, like myself, are on contract and don't get the extra benefits of permanent staff but you would surely have been aware that share options are just that - options to buy at a discounted price at a future date. No money is at risk. The Total Reward package of basic salary, bonus, pension, share options plus other benefits has always been a winner but most permanent staff are intelligent enough to realise that the various parts are as the say on the tin. It's only 3 weeks since most people up here were celebrating a larger than expected bonus following the announcement of the 2007 results.
I've never been a stocks and shares man (too much exposure in the pension fund to want any extra) but I'd speculate that HBOS shares would look very cheap indeed maybe 5 years on.
 
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