Order Of Merit

Not sure if what was me or not? I said all along (and I'm sure someone can dig it up if they really feel the need) that I was sure Charles would not go for the Gold Cup and that I felt the owners were forcing his hand in entering the horse, but I was sure Edgy would strongly advise against running him in the race.

The other thing about the Darkness issue that you all conveniently ignore everytime is that to a man you banged on about what a terrible call I'd made, and slammed home the fact that he was a poor favourite for the race (I ain't Mystic Meg; I didn't know 5 months in advance, when he was 33/1, that he would go off favourite for the race!) when I'd put the bloody horse up in October of the previous year! No-one was able to point out what a poor favourite he was for the RSA 4 months prior to the race either as he didn't even become favourite until after the Feltham on Boxing Day.

But no, every year the same people have to bang on and on about what a terrible judge I am and cite Darkness (or Arcalis) every time. It's one of the reasons I can't be bothered to put any horses up as tips half the time, as the same tired old faces rip me apart every time, without bothering to put their own opinions on the line half the time either, merely saving the smartarse comments for after the event.
 
It's good to be back.

I find Goober's logic interesting.

Are we therefore to assume that the only horses going into a Champion Hurdle with Champion Hurdle winning form are those who have previously won the race? This is interesting.

And what is 'Champion Hurdle winning form' anyway. To me, it seems as vaccuous a statement as calling a footballer 'world class' - a label that has little or no meaning.
 
I know what you mean Bobbyjo ..... what I mean is and what I meant at the time of my saying that I thought Detroit City would win this years Champion was that Champion Hurdle winners often show form quite a way in advance of the form they had previously shown when they actually win the big race for the first time.

A definition of Champion Hurdle winning form I cant give you so will have to remain vague!

Horses often win trials for the big race showing form that is inconclusive or below those of other leading contenders because the trials were uncompetitive or against novices or horse of their own age group, for example. This is the nature of running in trial races for big events.

Using the form shown to 'beat 'Detroit City was barking up the wrong tree, he was well beaten for whatever the other reasons are, but not because his form showed him to be rubbish! Sublimity's form was also not of a Champion Hurdle winning standard even allowing for the fact that he may have gone close to Noland and Straw Bear in the Supreme Novices. I was against him for temperament, possible stamina doubts AND ability doubts!

I dont have a view about Katchit in The Champion at the moment, but as someone has pointed out already he is likely to approach The Champion with people saying he doesnt have the form to win it because of the races he may run in, but that should not be the reason for being against him, for the reasons I have outlined that most Champion Hurdle winners do not post a Champion Hurdle winning rating until the day they win it.
Anyone dizzy ?
 
Originally posted by an capall@Nov 1 2007, 04:54 PM
Uncle Goober - hate to be pedantic, but relative to your statement that "as very few winners of The Champion Hurdle have actually shown that level until the day they win it"..I would contend that only those in bold conform to that statement in the last ten years.

1998 Istabraq
1999 Istabraq
2000 Istabraq
2001 Istabraq
2002 Hors La Loi III
2003 Rooster Booster
2004 Hardy Eustace
2005 Hardy Eustace
2006 Brave Inca
2007 Sublimity
Click to expand...
That's a lot of Champion Hurdle wins for Istabraq. I clearly didn't set my video correctly in 2001.....
 
Haven't a notion what any of that was Uncle Goober, I just looked for vowels and went from there.

However, I hope you're not stating that Detroit City had the form in the bag to win the Champion Hurdle this year. His form was suspect, as was pointed out by many people here at the time - a particularly erudite bunch known collectively as the 'Irishmen'
 
I'd have thought it was fairly obvious what UG is saying ~ the notion that "So-and-So" can't possibly win a championship race because his form isn't as strong as that of "Big Gun" who won it last year ignores the fact that So-and-So is potentially only going to show what he can do when faced by said Championship.
 
Isn't it just fecking great to have real racing back again? Anyway, I seem to have missed the Darkness topic last year. Did Dom really think that hairy goat was good???
 
Called it the next Arkle.....particularly as 'Ark' sound is clearly audible in name of said goat
 
Interestng observation BJ. Espececially as that sound is also found in 'arc' as in Arcalis, for example.
 
We weren't all Irishmen who opposed Detroit City, BJ!

An C, you must know by now that SL has a 'thing' about Edgy's horses, just as I have about Stan Moore's or Chris Beek has about Channon's! It's called emotional involvement... sometimes it can lead us into wishful thinking, as opposed to the punter's usual clinical judgement
:laughing:

Personally although I might follow a good horse of Edgy's over hurdles, and even in novice chases or some handicaps, I'd never back any of his in a Grade 2 Chase let alone a Grade 1, for the simple reason he's never won one [no doubt I'll be corrected if I have missed one] - and he's been training quite a long time.
 
Absolute bollocks, to use the technical term, Headstrong.

I know Edgy's methods and I follow his closely but I certainly don't back them all and I make good money. If my method is wishful thinking rather than any type of judgement, please put up a 33/1 shot now for the RSA, that gets placed, would you? Or point me to a bumper horse that you say will make a lovely chaser one day (viz-a-viz Mr Pointment), or back the runaway winner of the Tote Gold Trophy at 16/1 a month before the race [Decoupage] or the winner of the Supreme Novices Hurdle at 6/1 [Shadow Leader] against a fancied O'Brien horse, or the 4th placed horse in the Ayr Gold Cup at 40/1 [Azzizi], or lump on the nervous chaser he's sent all the way up to Perth at 9/4 [The Entomologist]...need I go on? Please do speak for yourself when claiming people are blindly following horses because of who they are trained by in a bout of wishful thinking rather than attempting to guess at other people methods in future!

As for Edgy's record, I put you straight on your misreporting of the facts when you trotted out that one last year! Although in fairness last year you also erroneously stated that he hadn't had a horse placed in a grade one or two chase! Off the top of my head, Decoupage won the Grade 2 Henry VIII Chase and Flashthecash won the Grade 2 Kingmaker Chase; Darkness won the Grade 2 Unicoin Chase and the Grade 1 Feltham Chase ~ do they not count?!
 
I also dont have a "blurred vision" on Channon horses, to be honest I rarely back them unless at false odds or if i know its useful.

I back horses that are good on the gallops or on figures or on form, i certainly don't bet because a certain trainer trains it, that is total bollocks and you would go skint if u bet like that.

As for emotional involvement i like the bloke and the yard but that doesn't mean i think everything of his will win. I just think he has achieved more than most trainers but never got a deserving credit for it.

I follow certain Channon horses cus he can train certain horses very well. Notably 2yo fillies with sprint pedigrees, I dont let emotions lead me to bet, and i certainly dont back everything out the yard. I think I would struggle to tell you 50 winners he's had this season, Ive backed about 30 of his horses this year and would say I would have had around a 50 - 60% strike rate, I rarely ever back odds on as well.
 
Oh ffs, I never said anyone was 'blindly following' anyone's horses: I said we all who are close to certain yards have 'a thing' about their horses.

Chris I wasn't suggesting you BACKED them - just that you usually write up a Channon runner in a race, and have a certain way of talking about them! And tbh you do sometimes give them more of a chance than my own analysis would allow... We all of us particularly watch horses from trainers' yards when we've had any involvement in them - doesn't mean we always back them [or tip them, tho we might give a bit of insight, ie talk about them]. The Irish on here usually talk up the Irish runners - it's human nature.

SL, you know we are never going to agree about Edgy. I do think you regularly over-rate his horses' chances; good for you if you make money on them, but I can only assume you are punting more judiciously than you write them up! Mind you in fairness you do mainly talk about novices and under-exposed horses, and his record with those isn't bad, esp hurdlers.

As you are aware, personally I don't rate him at all as a trainer, esp of older horses - and nothing you say will change my view. I don't rate him as a *person* come to that; in fact I'd go so far as to say I dislike him intensely. And that's from my six or so years of having horses with him in Elite [as well as the odd social encounter]. As to the horses, there's a sorry record of death, injury and under-achievement during MY membership, which is obviously what I'm basing my opinion on - I'm really not interested in hearing again what went before.

I've already said I would follow a good hurdler of his or maybe a novice chaser - but his record of handling chasers is not one I admire. OK he might have got one Grade 1 Novice Chase** and acouple of Grade 2s, sorry I missed them! - but over, what, 20 years? It's not a great record, given the quality of horse he's been given to train, and given that AP often rides.


** In fact I should have remembered this one, as I was there on the day - but I wasn't very impressed with the race! [never thought of it as a Grade 1 tbh] - and, like An Capell, neither was the RP race reporter:

<< On the face of it, this was a thoroughly unsatisfactory Grade 1 feature with both DARKNESS and Crozan putting in sloppy rounds of jumping, and it is hard to fathom bookmaker reaction with a wholesale reduction in the odds of Darkness into favouritism for the Royal & SunAlliance Chase at Cheltenham in March.
That said, Darkness was taking in a third big test in a month, having been considered best fresh with time between his races. He will now not run before the Festival, and showed a distinct unease going right-handed and on the faster ground in the back straight. >>

In fact he then came 3rd at Cheltenham and was PU in the Scottish National - RP: "Darkness never seemed that happy" ie poss feeling something? - and he's never run since

Edgy's other good horse Montgermont is also off injured iirc.

And Mr Pointment was moved this season to Paul Nicholls, though in the same ownership.
Like them, I'm entitled to my opinion - which is based on a bit more than just watching Edgy's horses on TV.

I suppose Hobbs Hill would be his best hope for this year? - unless he can get Montgermont back
 
The only thing I could find in that monster post was that you spelt "An Capell" wrong.
 
I think pinpointing Mr Pointment as a future chaser while a bumper horse was the single greatest piece of foresight ever shown on this forum. Only joking SL. :P

Your CV reads magnificently.

Ollie Magern never did scale those predicted heights. Hopefully he can get that second Charlie Hall tomorrow. :)

Of course Montgermont had the world at his feet after moving to a proper trainer from Lavinia Taylor. (who managed to campaign Gingembre brilliantly in my opinion)

I appreciate the fortright opinions, even if they are often wrong. It makes this place occasionally worth visiting, and you are definitely one of the most valuable and entertaining contributors.
 
... could find "what"?? - fault with? :P

Apologies to An Capellmeister
I've got a touch of arthritis in my fingers, typos are inevitable...
 
I'm well aware you don't rate Edgy as a trainer HS, which doesn't really bother me except that I do feel that it is unnecessary that you do like to have digs at him quite a lot. Mind you since I know all about how he trains and know him well as a person rather than judging him on hearsay and what you might have read in the Elite racing club newsletter I don't suppose that's much of a surprise anyway.

In fairness the most amusing thing in your post was your assertion that you dislike him intensely as a person. I find that very interesting as everyone I have come across [to a man] who actually knows Edgy is adamant that he is a great bloke. In actual fact, if I had a pound for every person who has expressed their utter amazement either on meeting him or meeting someone who knows him that they've discovered he is a genuinely lovely, very kind man, I'd be loaded! Edgy suffers from a poor public perception amongst those who don't know him in the slightest, mainly due to his size, his social class and his accent, amongst other things. The people who actually know him will not be swayed from their opinion that although he may have faults he is a fiercely loyal person with a big heart. One of our esteemed forumites in particular I remember asking me for my opinion of him as he was somewhat surprised about all the glowing reports he had heard about him; mainly from well respected and popular trainers who simply would not have a word said against him [I know many people who take the same view]. This forumite was curious about this and wanted to know what I thought of him; on saying the same as he had heard he said he was genuinely quite surprised and that he hadn't realised he was like that, but on hearing it from quite a few people whose opinions he respected greatly he had no reason to believe it was anything other.
 
What does this say the most about , "Shadow Leader", "edgy" or "the forumite"

discuss , in no less than 500 words, my desk , monday.
 
SL, I do 'know him' - in the sense I've met him several times, have been in the same company at the races, and have been quite often to the yard both on club visits when he holds court, and with a friend. We've got quite a few friends in common, actually; and I know a bit about his 'private persona' too. I've ALWAYS found him in person to be rude and graceless to the point of being boorish. I wouldn't dream of saying I dislike intensely someone I'd never met.

Some of your friends seem to have differing opinions to some of mine :laughing: Another thing: other trainers who have horses for the club, inc Henderson, King, Fanshawe, Cole & Cox to name but a few pretty successful ones, always give us members the time of day both on visits to the yard AND at the races if we bump into them, or eg around Lambourn watering holes, even if they don't know our names. They come to the club social functions, and mingle. Edgy wouldn't know a member from the cat litter - which is what he treats us like: dirt. Imo, he's a crashing snob. And I find his attitude to the poorer horses in the string quite unacceptable too!

No point discussing this - as I've already said my opinion IS based on personal experience, and your own won't change it - nor will trying to pretend I don't know what I'm talking about. I take as I find.

The reason we have these set-tos every time Edgy is mentioned, is that you refuse to countenance ANY criticism of him whatever, and always jump in all guns blazing. Then whoever is doing the ciriticising, feels obliged to respond, esp as you make assumptions which are inaccurate.

I refuse to be cowed from criticising certain aspects of a trainers record, ANY trainer's, just because you always throw your toys out of the pram if he's mentioned. I don't accept that any trainer should be beyond rational discussion here.

I haven't mentioned him for a year anyway! I only did so here as the matter of whether Darkness was in fact any good, raised its head :what: I suggested that the time to catch [ie back] Edgy's horses is early in their careers, and rarely in top class Graded races - I make no apology for that. The record supports me.
 
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