icebreaker
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I would like to see a more pronounced condemnation of the murders from moderate elements within Islam, and also a unified position against terrorism from Islamic religious leaders.
Paris Shootings
- Thread starter icebreaker
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Wolf
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Great word that 'specious' you may have used it in the wrong context, but it is a great word, well done
There is abolsutely nothing wrong with immigration per se and talk of ethnic wars is nonsense. Immgration has built the greatest city in the world over centuries. its healthy. But if the west had had a proper grip on things then immigration from the Muslim world or more especially the more fundamentalist states should have been heavily restricted. I don't care whether that is seen as prejudice or not. It's been a nightmare. Islam is fundamentally at odds with our freedoms and values and as a religion and whilst that might not be a problem in itself it's hostile and aggressive .
The Rushdie affair should have alerted us there and then but even at that time you had politicians such as hattersley and short who completely refused to condem the death sentence. Consistently means that they would have been quite comfortable with yesterday too.
We have pandered for too long. Last night the bbc told a French journalist that "millions of Muslims were offended by the cartoon" . No they fcking weren't . They never saw the cartoons and if they did they can go fck themselves until they find something worthwhile to worry about. The journalists repose was fantasticlally cutting to say the least and my admiration for the French strong belief in freedom and secularism was at odds with the craven crap we have in this country.
The Rushdie affair should have alerted us there and then but even at that time you had politicians such as hattersley and short who completely refused to condem the death sentence. Consistently means that they would have been quite comfortable with yesterday too.
We have pandered for too long. Last night the bbc told a French journalist that "millions of Muslims were offended by the cartoon" . No they fcking weren't . They never saw the cartoons and if they did they can go fck themselves until they find something worthwhile to worry about. The journalists repose was fantasticlally cutting to say the least and my admiration for the French strong belief in freedom and secularism was at odds with the craven crap we have in this country.
Grasshopper
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The real threat to us is not foreign jihadis - it's home-grown fundamentalists; their hate fuelled by 'preachers' we often give asylum to, or who we permit to promote genocide and insurrection, under the protection of our deeply-held freedom-of-speech laws.
The evidence strongly suggests that we cannot have it both ways.
I don't know what the solution is.
On the one-hand, I'd be inclined to come down extremely hard on those mosques where radicalisation is most prevalent. Lock-up any preacher who incites anything more dangerous than changing socks after Friday prayers. Pass new and/or toughen existing laws to severely restrict the assembly of supporters of IS/AQ. Allow them to assemble, and throw millions into the surveillance of any known radicals. Deploy technical measures to strengthen the intelligence; tap phones, hack e-mails, re-direct snail-mail, DDOS websites, cancel passports, block credit-cards. Whatever. Thereafter, start putting the shi*tters-up them one-by-one. Threaten them. Put pressure on their families. Put their businesses at-risk by nefarious means. Whatever. Get some turned and on the inside, and start disappearing some people.
On the other hand, I suspect most of the above is questionable from a legal stand-point.
The evidence strongly suggests that we cannot have it both ways.
I don't know what the solution is.
On the one-hand, I'd be inclined to come down extremely hard on those mosques where radicalisation is most prevalent. Lock-up any preacher who incites anything more dangerous than changing socks after Friday prayers. Pass new and/or toughen existing laws to severely restrict the assembly of supporters of IS/AQ. Allow them to assemble, and throw millions into the surveillance of any known radicals. Deploy technical measures to strengthen the intelligence; tap phones, hack e-mails, re-direct snail-mail, DDOS websites, cancel passports, block credit-cards. Whatever. Thereafter, start putting the shi*tters-up them one-by-one. Threaten them. Put pressure on their families. Put their businesses at-risk by nefarious means. Whatever. Get some turned and on the inside, and start disappearing some people.
On the other hand, I suspect most of the above is questionable from a legal stand-point.
Well i did say if we had had a grip on immigration from pakistan say. It is too late now of course. We are where we are but islam is, bar their sinister admirers on the left, completely friendless. the more fundamentalist side is bringing down the whole religion in the eyes of the outside world but that element is pretty substantial too.
There is no such things as moderate Islam, that is the problem. There are moderates within it, but the religion itself stands in contrast to our complete way of life. I was speaking to someone this morning who made the point Islam needs its own reformation, even though it will never happen.
Tolerance has been the cause of this, yet the word is championed by politicians.
Tolerance has been the cause of this, yet the word is championed by politicians.
Agree with this but would add immigration is great when immigrants values and beliefs have or can find something in common with the 'host' country. Therein lies the problem.
i think there are minority strands such as Sufi I think but yes. How many Muslims believe that gays and adulterers should be murdered? It's a pretty high proportion.
Another way of looking at t is to ask what % of Hindus Buddhists jews and Christians believe that those that renounce their religion should be executed? Lets hazard a guess at just about 0.0001%
in Egypt it is 88% and Pakistan 62%
but in Tunisia it's far less and it is less than 5% in the caucus states.
trouble is we have more of the former and less of the latter
But some don't see it do they? We very nearly had the building of a mosque in east london which would have housed 70000 worshippers. And it was to be run by an extreme Sunni sect that has links with fundamentalists and I believe the Mumbai attacks. Really welcome eh? And who was pushing extremely hard for it to be built?
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A policewoman has just been killed. They would have got a particular kick out of that being female and the pure hatred that that sect has for women.
I simply can't wait for these scum to be killed now. I hope it is with maximum pain. I would also tell them as they are dying that their bodies are to be fed to pigs. That would be an absolutely wonderful send off.
I simply can't wait for these scum to be killed now. I hope it is with maximum pain. I would also tell them as they are dying that their bodies are to be fed to pigs. That would be an absolutely wonderful send off.
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"but so much of the culture at all levels within that religion is intolerant and paranoid." - Just as well you hold the higher moral ground then Clive
Not interested.
i think just about everybody in any country following any belief regardless of whether political or religous most emphatically holds a higher moral ground than Islamists. Outside of North Korea and some primitive deepest African tribes absolutely no one would disagree with that.
i would also say that we should be proud of our democratic values and protection of genuine free speech and our distaste for ideologues and dictators.
icebreaker
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There's nothing paranoid about seeing radical Islam as an existential threat to western values.
And it is right to be intolerant towards beheadings, crucifixions, and terrorist murder on the streets of our cities.
Fair enough, but don't assume you hold the high moral ground when your solution is death by medieval torture and telling the dying person that you're feeding their corpse to pigs. I'm not sure that there is that much difference between the two is there?
Actually, looking ahead, there are some other things that it wouldn't be inappropriate to consider
These are not heavy duty jihadists schooled on a decade in the Tora Bora caves. One of them surrendered the moment he heard is name on the news, whilst the other two don't seem to have loaded up with enough spending money to sustain themselves and are now robbing petrol stations, and (if the BBC is to be believed) left their ID card in the abandoned car. Yet.... the two at large are about 30 hours in now and giving the French military, police, intelligence services and media the run around. Imagine what 20 might do? 200? 2000? This could easily be the scale that we're up against in the medium term.
France is seemingly launching an extensive manhunt, and whereas they'll doubtless capture and kill them (unless they disappear into a squatter camp in Calais) it does seemingly underline just how badly behind the 8 ball Europe is. A few months ago many of you were leaping up and down (the usual suspects) demanding that the UK get directly involved in Iraq and Syria. Can you not now see that we're going to be at full stretch (army, police, private security firms, & any other neighbourhood bodies created in between) just defending our own streets? We haven't got the military capacity, and unlike the US, our muslim populations are bigger, we're much nearer the breeding grounds of the middle east and north Africa, and we don't have a weapons trained population. We're actually becoming sitting ducks
The question I'm posing is how much more will we take before elements of own populations decide enough is enough and start to move to defend themselves when they perceive that the authorities no longer can do? What will be the symptom of this happening? Clive can bang on as much as he likes about feeding them to pigs. It's rhetoric, and we've heard people express similar emotive sentiments ahead of previous conflicts. Similarly, the French can launch social media campaigns (as if that'll make a jot of difference - hashtags have yet to win a war) and try and kid themselves that they really are frightened of a pencil, but it won't alter anything.
There is a possible similarity from history here concerning the way that Gothic tribes crossed the Danube to escape the Mongols and fall under the protection of Rome. Admittedly it's not perfect, but is it so inconceivable?
The Romans let them in, and assigned them sub-serviant roles in society, doing all the shite stuff they'd rather not do themselves. Eventually they trained and incorporated them into the army so they could fight Rome's enemies for them, whilst the decadent Romans feasted on bread and circuses (celebrity television and the premiership). Guess what happened?
These are not heavy duty jihadists schooled on a decade in the Tora Bora caves. One of them surrendered the moment he heard is name on the news, whilst the other two don't seem to have loaded up with enough spending money to sustain themselves and are now robbing petrol stations, and (if the BBC is to be believed) left their ID card in the abandoned car. Yet.... the two at large are about 30 hours in now and giving the French military, police, intelligence services and media the run around. Imagine what 20 might do? 200? 2000? This could easily be the scale that we're up against in the medium term.
France is seemingly launching an extensive manhunt, and whereas they'll doubtless capture and kill them (unless they disappear into a squatter camp in Calais) it does seemingly underline just how badly behind the 8 ball Europe is. A few months ago many of you were leaping up and down (the usual suspects) demanding that the UK get directly involved in Iraq and Syria. Can you not now see that we're going to be at full stretch (army, police, private security firms, & any other neighbourhood bodies created in between) just defending our own streets? We haven't got the military capacity, and unlike the US, our muslim populations are bigger, we're much nearer the breeding grounds of the middle east and north Africa, and we don't have a weapons trained population. We're actually becoming sitting ducks
The question I'm posing is how much more will we take before elements of own populations decide enough is enough and start to move to defend themselves when they perceive that the authorities no longer can do? What will be the symptom of this happening? Clive can bang on as much as he likes about feeding them to pigs. It's rhetoric, and we've heard people express similar emotive sentiments ahead of previous conflicts. Similarly, the French can launch social media campaigns (as if that'll make a jot of difference - hashtags have yet to win a war) and try and kid themselves that they really are frightened of a pencil, but it won't alter anything.
There is a possible similarity from history here concerning the way that Gothic tribes crossed the Danube to escape the Mongols and fall under the protection of Rome. Admittedly it's not perfect, but is it so inconceivable?
The Romans let them in, and assigned them sub-serviant roles in society, doing all the shite stuff they'd rather not do themselves. Eventually they trained and incorporated them into the army so they could fight Rome's enemies for them, whilst the decadent Romans feasted on bread and circuses (celebrity television and the premiership). Guess what happened?
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You're so misinformed it's hardly funny. He didn't 'surrender', he went to the police station willingly when he heard his name on the social media. He has had many classmates verify his alibi. How do you know they don't have enough money and didn't go to that petrol station (unconfirmed according to le Monde) for ... petrol.
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If they didn't have any need for money, and simply had a need for petrol. Why not pay cash for it? All they have to do is alter the number plate slightly and the attendant would be absolutely non the wiser who they'd served. You wouldn't need to alert the authorities as to where you were. Unless of course you're seriously asking us to believe that every filling station within a 300 mile radius of Paris is being asked to ring the police the moment an Asian looking man tries to buy petrol? Perhaps Le Monde might like to think that one out.
And since it was you who was advocating prison with lax security (whatever that's supposed to mean) you might like to dwell on the fact that radicalised muslims have in the past taken over prisons and forced other inmates to convert, and that one of these individuals appears to be the product of the French prison system whereupon his views seem to have hardened for his time spent there (if his lawyer is to be believed)
And since it was you who was advocating prison with lax security (whatever that's supposed to mean) you might like to dwell on the fact that radicalised muslims have in the past taken over prisons and forced other inmates to convert, and that one of these individuals appears to be the product of the French prison system whereupon his views seem to have hardened for his time spent there (if his lawyer is to be believed)
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Can you send me a link as to where muslims have taken over a prison in France please?
Again, please stop inventing things - that is NOT what his lawyer said. Why do you keep lying on here to create a hysterical situation? Here is the english translation of what he said:
When he was younger he had no professional or personal projects in his life. After being jailed in 2008 he became less juvenile, but I would not say he was a religious extremist. During his trial he never spoke of any extremist ideals.
For me it is very difficult to make a connection between the young man, who was almost a child, that I knew and the professional gunman that I saw yesterday. The Cherif Kouachi that I knew does not match the person that carried out the killings yesterday.
My only advice to him is to turn himself in to French authorities.
Again, please stop inventing things - that is NOT what his lawyer said. Why do you keep lying on here to create a hysterical situation? Here is the english translation of what he said:
When he was younger he had no professional or personal projects in his life. After being jailed in 2008 he became less juvenile, but I would not say he was a religious extremist. During his trial he never spoke of any extremist ideals.
For me it is very difficult to make a connection between the young man, who was almost a child, that I knew and the professional gunman that I saw yesterday. The Cherif Kouachi that I knew does not match the person that carried out the killings yesterday.
My only advice to him is to turn himself in to French authorities.
No. Because I was referring to Bellmarsh amongst others. Look them up yourself.
Also there are plenty of other examples from history whereby imprisoning likeminded people has only succeeded in stiffening their resolve. That ranges from the Bolsheviks to the Nazis and takes in the ANC en-route.
OK so my lies (as you so typically and delicately put it) are drawn from the BBC, but to summarise your translation, he spends time in jail at a point where he's not really shown any inclination towards radicalism (the BBC also quote the lawyer as saying he regarded the sentance as being a relief incidentally). Then at some point thereafter he starts radicalising when he's released to the point where is lawyer isn't able to offer any temporal explanation. Well we can certainly say that the prison system didn't reform did it?
Also note incidentally that's he's a Frenchman isn't he? I did of course suggest this yesterday when your typical bombast decided to brand me a looney conspiracist (the clues were there that this was not a hard line Jihadist cell).
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Good stuff. So they should and shows the genuine standards and courage of the French. The evening standard did yesterday here but I am not expecting much else from our media.
i have just passed the impromptu shrine (can't think of right word) outside national gallery. Will post a picture later.
Warbler. What's the real point though of differentiating between whether he's one jihadist cell or another? Does that really mean anything to the victims? Or those under threat? Whether alqueada or isis, it's still the same scum.
the Madrid bombers didnt exactly blow themselves up at the scene of the crime but didnt make them any less or more "hard line"
One thing for certain is that they were trained. No doubt about that. This wasnt a lone nutter.
There will no doubt be theories that's Mossad or the French intelligence of course. That's even happened after Peshawar for fucks sake
the Madrid bombers didnt exactly blow themselves up at the scene of the crime but didnt make them any less or more "hard line"
One thing for certain is that they were trained. No doubt about that. This wasnt a lone nutter.
There will no doubt be theories that's Mossad or the French intelligence of course. That's even happened after Peshawar for fucks sake
It was in the immediate aftermath Clive.
One of the first questions people ask is Who? The BBC were trotting out "experts" to tell us that this was well planned, and meticulous etc and this naturally led to speculation that it was the work of a well funded and fully trained cell. Some immediately drew the paralells with Mumbai because of the weapons used. Again, they probably carried in the region of 500 rounds between the 3 of them. 12 bodies is a very small total when set alongside Mumbai. My own read on it was that it was closer to the Boston bombing and the work of homegrown. In fairness Hamm pointed out some of the random things they were prepared to leave to chance, and the fact that they seemed to want to survive and escape rather than enter into the glory martyrdom was being missed by the so-called 'experts' (or at least I never heard anyone comment on it). It struck me at the time that this was likely the actions of someone(s) with western influence rather than being die hard jihadists from Tora Bora
That was close to 36 hours ago. We've moved on now, and sure enough, this is the picture that's emerging.
I'd agree that a victim is dead, is dead, is dead, and that it doesn't necessarily matter if its a cell or a freelancer. After you calm down, you'll come to realise that if you want to seek conflict with them, it doesn't matter whether you put them on the end of a snipers bullet, or torture them and feed them to pigs. The result is the same, and you're better off to take the emotion out of it and try and make strategic decisions.
Now you say it doesn't necessarily matter at one level, but at another it most definitely does. If we're talking about a generation starting emerge of homegrown threats from within Europe (and it is of course a massive extrapolation to go that far at this early stage) but that does become a different type of threat. It needs to be remembered that although this was by far the biggest body count, it's actually about the fourth such incident in France in the last month.
France has the largest muslim population in western Europe I think (not sure if German Turks out number them in truth?) France also has the most mature extreme right wing political organisation (can't think of a better word off-hand, but I'm sure you know what I mean? - the NF can't be considered a fringe party in France). France also has greater exposure to the northern African gateway. All things considered, if I were looking for the first tension points in western Europe to tell me that the epicentre was shifting and coming closer to home, then I'd be looking for evidence in France. I believe it's starting to emerge, and sadly, I take a pretty dystopic view of the future.
I think we are on a slide into conflict, and I think Europe will be the battleground in the future. The demographics of Europe will also look different in 30-40 years, and France in particular.
It was mentioned on this thread I believe that Islam needs a reformation. Well yes it does, but it was equally acknowledged it ain't gonna happen. So where is the end game? I'm afraid I take an altogether more dismal view that we will not succeed in embracing this religion/ culture/ mindset in our ways. They are going to fight and seek to destroy us and the whole thing could escalate very quickly. I honestly don't think we're remotely close to being prepared or equipped.
We need a global response to attack radical Islam at source without favour to trading nations. We also need to bring countries who can support that drive into the campaign. Europe might conceivably be able to function as a bloc, but no single European country has the resources to sustain this. Our militaries simply aren't big enough and we continue to hollow them out. Our "military prowess" (to parrot Cameron) is going to be stretched to breaking point defending British streets. Just look how the French are struggling at the moment. It took the American's, (with all their resources) about 3 days to hunt down the Boston bomber
How much more do you think we'll accept? What type of incident might prove a tipping point? And do you not accept that there is a danger that some people will start to lose confidence in the authorities to defend them and start taking unilateral action?
One of the first questions people ask is Who? The BBC were trotting out "experts" to tell us that this was well planned, and meticulous etc and this naturally led to speculation that it was the work of a well funded and fully trained cell. Some immediately drew the paralells with Mumbai because of the weapons used. Again, they probably carried in the region of 500 rounds between the 3 of them. 12 bodies is a very small total when set alongside Mumbai. My own read on it was that it was closer to the Boston bombing and the work of homegrown. In fairness Hamm pointed out some of the random things they were prepared to leave to chance, and the fact that they seemed to want to survive and escape rather than enter into the glory martyrdom was being missed by the so-called 'experts' (or at least I never heard anyone comment on it). It struck me at the time that this was likely the actions of someone(s) with western influence rather than being die hard jihadists from Tora Bora
That was close to 36 hours ago. We've moved on now, and sure enough, this is the picture that's emerging.
I'd agree that a victim is dead, is dead, is dead, and that it doesn't necessarily matter if its a cell or a freelancer. After you calm down, you'll come to realise that if you want to seek conflict with them, it doesn't matter whether you put them on the end of a snipers bullet, or torture them and feed them to pigs. The result is the same, and you're better off to take the emotion out of it and try and make strategic decisions.
Now you say it doesn't necessarily matter at one level, but at another it most definitely does. If we're talking about a generation starting emerge of homegrown threats from within Europe (and it is of course a massive extrapolation to go that far at this early stage) but that does become a different type of threat. It needs to be remembered that although this was by far the biggest body count, it's actually about the fourth such incident in France in the last month.
France has the largest muslim population in western Europe I think (not sure if German Turks out number them in truth?) France also has the most mature extreme right wing political organisation (can't think of a better word off-hand, but I'm sure you know what I mean? - the NF can't be considered a fringe party in France). France also has greater exposure to the northern African gateway. All things considered, if I were looking for the first tension points in western Europe to tell me that the epicentre was shifting and coming closer to home, then I'd be looking for evidence in France. I believe it's starting to emerge, and sadly, I take a pretty dystopic view of the future.
I think we are on a slide into conflict, and I think Europe will be the battleground in the future. The demographics of Europe will also look different in 30-40 years, and France in particular.
It was mentioned on this thread I believe that Islam needs a reformation. Well yes it does, but it was equally acknowledged it ain't gonna happen. So where is the end game? I'm afraid I take an altogether more dismal view that we will not succeed in embracing this religion/ culture/ mindset in our ways. They are going to fight and seek to destroy us and the whole thing could escalate very quickly. I honestly don't think we're remotely close to being prepared or equipped.
We need a global response to attack radical Islam at source without favour to trading nations. We also need to bring countries who can support that drive into the campaign. Europe might conceivably be able to function as a bloc, but no single European country has the resources to sustain this. Our militaries simply aren't big enough and we continue to hollow them out. Our "military prowess" (to parrot Cameron) is going to be stretched to breaking point defending British streets. Just look how the French are struggling at the moment. It took the American's, (with all their resources) about 3 days to hunt down the Boston bomber
How much more do you think we'll accept? What type of incident might prove a tipping point? And do you not accept that there is a danger that some people will start to lose confidence in the authorities to defend them and start taking unilateral action?
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They were trained. That is obvious. They are almost certainly trained isis or aq. No one has ever suggested they were from overseas. 7/7 bombers were british too werent they?
Frankly I think its you that needs to calm down when talking about a global war with russian tanks on our streets and Chinese troops taking over European cities because we can't cope.
its not as if china Russia and India have successfully defeated Islamic terrorism is it?
Frankly I think its you that needs to calm down when talking about a global war with russian tanks on our streets and Chinese troops taking over European cities because we can't cope.
its not as if china Russia and India have successfully defeated Islamic terrorism is it?
Oh go on, I wasn't going to dignify you with a response, but I suppose you've baited one out of me
I think I made it pretty clear I've been talking about a global response involving China, India, and Russia as the countries best equipped to project power (the US is a given). That means the middle east, north and east Africa, and Pakistan. Europe's limited military capacity will be kept in Europe defending ourselves. Any suggestion you've inferred to the contrary is another product of your over fertile imagination. I'll challenge you to find one iota to the contrary
incidentally
have you got any evidence to support this?
"They were trained. That is obvious. They are almost certainly trained isis or aq"
I must admit I haven't seen any, but that doesn't preclude the fact that the authorities have reported something I've missed. Knowing how to fire and change a magazine on a Kalash doesn't count as training though Clive. You can do that on youtube
I think I made it pretty clear I've been talking about a global response involving China, India, and Russia as the countries best equipped to project power (the US is a given). That means the middle east, north and east Africa, and Pakistan. Europe's limited military capacity will be kept in Europe defending ourselves. Any suggestion you've inferred to the contrary is another product of your over fertile imagination. I'll challenge you to find one iota to the contrary
incidentally
have you got any evidence to support this?
"They were trained. That is obvious. They are almost certainly trained isis or aq"
I must admit I haven't seen any, but that doesn't preclude the fact that the authorities have reported something I've missed. Knowing how to fire and change a magazine on a Kalash doesn't count as training though Clive. You can do that on youtube