Paris Shootings

Military capacity is not what will defeat home grown nutters. Another aircraft carrier won't stop a bomb on the tube.

I would be pretty certain they received training. Isn't that the consensus from experts who have been contacted by the media?
 
I accept all that. I do believe the threat is changing, and I'm not completely sure we're changing with it. It's why I've floated the idea of national service being reintroduced (albeit they won't call it that) but some kind of backdoor vehicle that puts more personnel on the street. I can also see a role for private sector emergency response squads like they have in South Africa.

I'm trying to think what a slip to war would like? It's not like there's signposts or formal declarations. There have been plenty of wars throughout history where participants weren't necessarily aware they were in a fully fledged conflict, nor what the significance of it was. That is normally left to historians to decide, and plenty of wars have been renamed accordingly as with hindsight people have been able to take a view as to what was involved

As regards the training they've recieved, I don't know. I've heard some 'experts' talking complete cobblers already on this though and they've been proven to be well off track, so I'm sceptical at one level. There's training and training, but someone could self-teach an AK47 in terms of fire and reload procedure, it's a remarkably easy weapon to learn, and 12 dead with three operatives in the field is a small return in honesty (I can only assume body count wasn't their full objective)
 
clivex said:
I would be pretty certain they received training. Isn't that the consensus from experts who have been contacted by the media?
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I've just seen the claim on a Frank Gardner piece for the BBC, but I'm not totally convinced. The piece also included the revelation that the attack was "deliberately designed for maximum publicity". No idea where he got that from? The fact that they fled the scene would lead me to conclude the opposite. Woolwich where they hung around and preached into people's phones was what I'd call an attack designed with publicity in mind. He also reported that the third person was "no longer thought to be involved" (it was the BBC acknowledging their error Hamm, but if you think it's me lying - then fair enough)

I think some of it comes down to semantics of language Clive. "Training" I take to cover wider military planning and preparation, up to and including survival. Not the sort of thing that has you running out of money, provisions, and petrol after 24 hours. "Instruction" (as in how to fire a weapon) is a much lower level. I wouldn't call 'instruction', training myself. Having said that, Gardener does talk about the likelihood of "recieving training from fellow jihadists" which could cover a whole gamut of possibilities. One would hope however that he's got some information that suggests that they've recently left the country and returned rather than speculating.

I'm also slightly concerned to learn that the total number of people engaged in the hunt now is 88,000. I'm not sure if this reassures us or worries us that a body of people that is actually 8,000 bigger than David Cameron's proposal for the entire strength of the UK's standing army, hasn't been able to find them. It convinces me more and more (sadly) that to defeat this threat at home, we're going to find ways of enhancing the capacity and contribution of the civilian population eventually as we slide through the gears towards the inevitable

Mind you, didn't Raul Moat hold out for about 6-7 days a few years ago? Barry Prudham about 10 days, Harry Roberts about 3 weeks albeit technology is much greater today of course. Come to think of it, we had someone who went on the run and spent about 2 weeks in Sherwood Forest a couple years back as well
 
This thread is missing something

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that's better.. unity! Anyone got a copy of the cartoons?
 
They both tried to justify what happened by putting it into 'context'. It is horrible stuff. The first one you can see is rattled after her 'points' are not taken up and shot down, and then tries to be everyone's friend and say how shocked she is. It's perverse that people like this live in England.
 
Seems the pair have been cornered. Unfortunately, reports are suggesting there has been further deaths -- two people dead and a dozen or more injured.
 
Hamm said:
They both tried to justify what happened by putting it into 'context'. It is horrible stuff. The first one you can see is rattled after her 'points' are not taken up and shot down, and then tries to be everyone's friend and say how shocked she is. It's perverse that people like this live in England.
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I agree. It was the old whatabout drivel. Ultimately they were finding reasons to support what was in truth their belief that it was justified. They should have had the nerve to come out and say that the killings were deserved. Poses as an "intellectual" and yet devoid of any clarity whatsoever.

Using algeria in 1961 as a reason was desperate.

We will be finding that there are quite a few more who delighted in the attacks than the media will lead us to believe and not just muslims too
 
n the US, a senior official has told reporters that one of the two brothers alleged to have carried out the attack, Said Kouachi, spent "a few months" training in Yemen with the group. He is thought to have trained in small arms combat and marksmanship.
Said and his younger brother, convicted terrorist Cherif Kouachi, were on a US no-fly list before the attack, a US counter-terrorism official told the New York Times.


 
Charlie Hebdo's remaining writers have arrived at Liberation, who are hosting them in their office and will help them put together next week's edition. Usually they sell 60,000 / week, next week's print run will be 1,000,000. Le Monde have also offered anything needed, so it's good to see the fraternity.
 
If they actually get these two out alive ( personally I would rather they killed them than waste French tax payers money ), the French should reintroduce the guillotine especially for the two of them. See how that goes down on youtube in the middle east.
 
Bit of a coincidence here but, following on from my ponderings on how all of this started, I was watching a programme on BBC4 about map making. It was pointed out that the Brits drew a map of borders around Iraq and that part of the world. A local leader [who was laughed at at the time] said that they could not have set borders as the area consisted of nomadic tribes who needed to follow routes going back generations. The fact that they still went ahead with the borders has caused problems ongoing to this day.[of course, I'm not trying to justify whats happened, just trying to fathom out how it has got to this in a Butterfly effect sort of way...]
 
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ill tell you how this started

it has NOTHING to do with borders set 100 years ago.

it has everything to do with a genuinely evil and deeply intolerant idealogy. how much evidence do you need?

and borders? Ill tell you what went wrong with the borders. It was europe not emphatically closing them to muslims. europe should and does welcome immigrants from everywhere but pakistan egypt and algeria should have been closed off decades ago. you have your independence now go and keep your hateful bigoted sick lives. go and beat your wives and obsess about gays in your own **** holes
 
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Unless your name is Waqar Younis, in which case please come and bowl for Surrey because we're shite otherwise
 
I'm losing track of the multiple Islamic-terrorist incidents currently happening across France. ( Warbler's assertion that the original Hebdo outrage was a "lone-wolf" op is looking increasingly a mistaken analysis. The attacks appear to be linked -- organised, planned and with a strategic objective).
My heart goes out to the French people in this reality. Enough is enough of this awfulness.
 
Everything has a beginning. We do have to try to understand how and why things happen even if we're just trying to understand how people can justify things that are unjustifiable. I've always felt that countries such as Iraq can never be democratic and that they have to be controlled by dictators of some kind. Wasn't Pakistan a western creation?
 
Warbler said:
Unless your name is Waqar Younis, in which case please come and bowl for Surrey because we're shite otherwise
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its a numbers game isnt it though? It might be very unfair to have said no immigration from pakistan say but the fact is that a significant proportion adhere to an idealogy which is sick. Migration is a not a right. We should have said "no"

I also get fed up with the idea that its "disenfranchised youth". There are poor immigrants and natives from all cultures. They do not all hate just about everyone around them. Perhaps they were not brought up in that environment say? Perhaps they didnt attend a mosque ? is that difficult for the apologists to understand?
 
moehat said:
Everything has a beginning. We do have to try to understand how and why things happen even if we're just trying to understand how people can justify things that are unjustifiable. I've always felt that countries such as Iraq can never be democratic and that they have to be controlled by dictators of some kind. Wasn't Pakistan a western creation?
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this is rubbish moehat. there were borders created in africa and latin america and do we see brazliians in london shooting cartoonists? columbians banging on about jews ?

their desired "border" includes Spain and the genocide of all "non believers" in Spain. i suppose we must "understand" that must we
 
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