Paris Shootings

But what was the catalyst that changed this situation into an intolerable one? As I've said before I'm not making excuses for them. I'm trying to understand how anyone can justify in their own mind the shooting [in the back I believe] of an unarmed policewoman.
 
icebreaker said:
I'm losing track of the multiple Islamic-terrorist incidents currently happening across France. ( Warbler's assertion that the original Hebdo outrage was a "lone-wolf" op is looking increasingly a mistaken analysis. The attacks appear to be linked -- organised, planned and with a strategic objective).
My heart goes out to the French people in this reality. Enough is enough of this awfulness.
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Oh give over, these 'attacks' are almosty knee jerk reactions, they're nowhere near as well thought out and co-ordinated by highly trained individuals as the media are telling us. Look at the evidence.

The ones holed up in printing company are now saying they want to be martyrs. They had that opportunity on Wednesday when they could have stayed on scene and caused many more casualties than they did (aka Mumbai) but they fled. They managed to leave an ID card on the passenger seat of the card and then took the chance of hijacking another one. After a few hours it occurs to them that they forgot to put the pack lunch in their rucksack and haven't got any money either. So even though the police haven't got a clue where they are, they break cover for a few sandwiches rather than go hungry. Then they eventually make another move and head south. They could have headed for Calais and disappeared into the tranisent squatter camps (there was a reason we stepped up security at channel entry points yesterday) but instead they end up in a print works with a single hostage despite the fact there was a school 500yds away. This isn't well planned at all

As regards the latest guy who tells the police "they know who he is" you need to give this some context too. Paris is a city of 7.5m people. He's had months probably years to prepare for his last stand, and where does he end up? in Jewish green groucers with 5 hostages. I'd imagine they've got their heads in their hands somewhere in an AQ training camp listening to this newsfeed coming in. They'd have been better off teaching them how to shoplift, or at least remember to take cash out with them next time. He could have gone for transport hubs, schools, hospitals, major employers, media outlets, sporting events, but no, he settles for a Kosher green groucer and 5 hostages. The media need to make this sound very dramatic of course, but I dread to think what might happen if they were up against genuinely fast moving and capable terrorists implementing a carefull thought out and co-ordinated strategy.

This looks like a loose network at best. It really doesn't have the hallmarks of a highly trained and sophisticated terrorist cell at all.

What I can't understand is why the French aren't picking up everyone on their watch lists right now (Harry Pearce would) he shot the Russian the diplomat
 
i dont exactly think its a good time to be discussing whether they are clowns or not
 
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clivex said:
This looks like a loose network at best. It really doesn't have the hallmarks of a highly trained and sophisticated terrorist cell at all.

Well thats ok then
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It's a lot easier to handle yes, but you also need to look forward and extrapolate how we'd cope if we were up against a well organised and mobile threat. On this evidence it ain't good
 
moehat said:
But what was the catalyst that changed this situation into an intolerable one? As I've said before I'm not making excuses for them. I'm trying to understand how anyone can justify in their own mind the shooting [in the back I believe] of an unarmed policewoman.
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i dont understand the point. they believe every single day that those that do not adhere to their beliefs must be murdered. What more do they need?
 
icebreaker said:
That is complete bollocks.
They were, of course, pre-planned. A 3-y-o could see that.
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I think you need to consider the temporal frame involved. The brothers are holed up at about 10.00am this morning? News reaches the second person about this time? He gathers his weapons together and does what? Heads for his local green groucer and is in there by about 11.00am. That is nearer to a knee jerk than a carefully laid out plan

The most you could say is that they've been very, very, badly pre-planned, or something that perhaps he had in the back of his mind that he might try. But to suggest it's some kind of carefully thought out strategic move (the media) is miles off the mark. He's only ended up with 5 hostages for crying out loud! (or at least that's the BBC figure)

The wider evidence points to a very recent conception and 'go' decision I reckon. I'm sure when its all over and serious analysis starts, people will start picking holes in the numerous mistakes they've made (if they're allowed to publicly). I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the final decision was taken as late as last weeks Friday prayers (albeit we'll probably never get know). The whole operation(s) are riddled with examples of poor planning.

Are you watching Sky by any chance? If you listened to them you'd think some kind Islamic Navy Seals have landed in Paris. They're the ones talking bollocks, but remember they need drama to keep you tuned in and also to frighten you a bit. There is also a limit as to how many times they can keep cutting to a grey industrial shed before the coverage becomes a bit run of the mill siege like (we have seen these before). They're clearly going to wait for dark (when the authorities get the advantage of rotating fresh men in and night vision) and then building on the evidence they've gathered during the day (architects drawings, descriptions of the plant layout, listening devices etc) they'll finish it
 
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I don't need Sky to frighten me; any thinking person would be frightened of the direction of Islamic terrorism.
I'm afraid you haven't being paying enough attention to developing news of this topic, however.
Like yesterday, when you stated that "one had surrendered" and other misconceptions you exhibited. You are also similarly mistaken about the fundamentals of today's developments. Surely you know by now that the suspect in the Jewish restaurant hostage incident is also the suspect in the shooting of the policewoman yesterday, and is associated with the same Paris-based Islamic jihadi cell as the two brothers responsible for the Hebro murders?
 
Warbler said:
They're clearly going to wait for dark (when the authorities get the advantage of rotating fresh men in and night vision) and then building on the evidence they've gathered during the day (architects drawings, descriptions of the plant layout, listening devices etc) they'll finish it
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#jesuschrist.
Seems your analysis is wrong again.
It's already happening; and it ain't dark yet ..................
 
its not what is happening now but what will be happening soon. this will probably inspire new attacks and right across europe

the handwringers will say its all our fault for not giving "disenfranchised youths" gays to beat up and virgins to fck and of course its all down to foreign wars

which is why isis has now threatened... Sweden
 
icebreaker said:
I don't need Sky to frighten me; any thinking person would be frightened of the direction of Islamic terrorism.
I'm afraid you haven't being paying enough attention to developing news of this topic, however.
Like yesterday, when you stated that "one had surrendered" and other misconceptions you exhibited. You are also similarly mistaken about the fundamentals of today's developments. Surely you know by now that the suspect in the Jewish restaurant hostage incident is also the suspect in the shooting of the policewoman yesterday, and is associated with the same Paris-based Islamic jihadi cell as the two brothers responsible for the Hebro murders?
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OK, I can't really be repsonsible for inaccurate BBC reports, and they did correct them later, albeit I did repeat them originally using the word "surrender" - so what. You're also correct to assume I'm not glued to the TV over this in a state of paranoid fear, I've got other things to do. I wasted too much time yesterday

You really need to calm down a bit though. This looks much more like a few radicals who probably share the same mosque and conceived of their own 'plan' to avenge the cartoonists, and hadn't really thought it through much beyond that. They're a long way from being a "Jihadi cell". Anyone with an automatic weapon and warped mind becomes a threat when put up against unarmed civilians. I would be too, but it doesn't make me some kind of highly functioning elite commando.

You do use some emotive language. They've made far too many mistakes throughout this for you think they're some kind of top-feeder. Clive's a little bit nearer the significance of these attacks when he's scanning the horizon. The issue really is how we repsond when we come up against better thought through stretagies and people who are intent on racking up a body count. Now that, I'll conceed, is frightening
 
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Looks like they have done the job in paris too

If they have managed this without any deaths of human beings as opposed to filth then the french have done a superb job on this.
 
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if this has worked as we think it has, then every right to be extremely impressed and pleased. is that a problem?

it might be that two were killed in the initial attack on the supermarket but its possible that no other humans lost their lives today
 
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It's certainly impressive and it's very pleasing that the hostages appear to have been safely released in both locations.

I have no sympathy for those killed today and the world is better off without them but their damage has already been done and they're as happy with their own deaths as you appear to be. Given that the fallout from this very sad situation is hardly going to be beneficial to the moderate majorities or civil liberties, I don't especially think this is a time for rejoicing.

Any celebration of the events over the past hour is purely masturbatory.
 
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The fallout of living in either craven fear or stupid fawning over the islamists is a far bigger threat to moderation or civil liberties. As I said before the biggest nail on coffin of freedom was the disgraceful appeasement during the rushdie affair not those that fought against it

I dont think it is a time to question that when 12 people lost their lives fighting for free speech

I am delighted that the jihadists are dead whether they wanted it or not
 
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Nobody here is fawning over them...

But to each his own. I just don't feel pleasure when I know the cancer of extremism (both Islamic and far-right) will be strengthened by these events.
 
That's exactly as I see it Clive.

I'm concerned though that the media increase the fear with they way they hype the coverage. Our media provide the publicity these murderers seek. I don't see that changing, but nevertheless it would be better to limit coverage of suspected jihadi acts to the bare facts rather than over hype and consistently sensationalise the coverage. Our media is feeding them and our craven need to see it encourages them more.
 
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I can see that but lets face it, a chase and stand off with the good guys winning is great tv. Horribly voyeuristic as it is plenty here were watching
 
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