Paris Shootings

No I don't at all. If that's the case then it is wrong. Simple as that. I know there is a dark side to the church there. We all do
 
I think Hamm has a point here. We lose some of the power in this when politicians decide they need to get on the front row and demonstrate to the voters of Europe they can go for a walk on a Sunday. It would have been more powerful if it was a people's march and also one that demonstrated to our politicians that although we wish to pay respects to the deceased, we also want to send a message to our own leaders to start doing something

On July 26th, 2011, 100,000 Norwegians marched in Oslo (about the same percentage of the French pop'n did today) in commeration of the 76 young people killed by a Norwegian national acting out a political philosophy of European origin. How many of Europe's politicians turned up for this do you think?

Indeed, without realising it, as I've been trapped into thinking everything Islam when looking for paralells. Anders Brevik is the answer to this question I've posed about what is possible when a well armed, well drilled, fanatic with a brain on them goes to work

As a matter of interest, anyone got any idea how many turned out in Dresden this evening? That might be the more significant one yet
 
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Can I just say that I am glad that my Prime Minister ( Kenny) attended the remembrance march today. I would have been annoyed if he wasn't.
I couldn't be there myself, so it was good that there was an official embodiment of our country's sentiment present in Paris.
And that's what it is; Cameron, Kenny, Merkel and the rest were there in a representative capacity as leaders -- conveying the sympathy and solidarity of their respective countries.
That's the way I see it.
 
I think it's equally fair to say that any politician refusing to take part was on a complete hiding, so they were a little bit damned if they did and damned if they didn't. Of the two options participation was clearly the right thing to do, but there is a bit of me that thinks a more powerful message might have been sent were it free of politics. Mind you, it equally depends on how you perceive the message being sent and to whom
 
Warbler said:
As a matter of interest, anyone got any idea how many turned out in Dresden this evening? That might be the more significant one yet
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My error, it transpires that Dresden 'rally' is tomorrow with 35,000 turning out yesterdy (double previous) against them
 
Warbler said:
I think Hamm has a point here. We lose some of the power in this when politicians decide they need to get on the front row and demonstrate to the voters of Europe they can go for a walk on a Sunday. It would have been more powerful if it was a people's march and also one that demonstrated to our politicians that although we wish to pay respects to the deceased, we also want to send a message to our own leaders to start doing something

On July 26th, 2011, 100,000 Norwegians marched in Oslo (about the same percentage of the French pop'n did today) in commeration of the 76 young people killed by a Norwegian national acting out a political philosophy of European origin. How many of Europe's politicians turned up for this do you think?

Indeed, without realising it, as I've been trapped into thinking everything Islam when looking for paralells. Anders Brevik is the answer to this question I've posed about what is possible when a well armed, well drilled, fanatic with a brain on them goes to work

As a matter of interest, anyone got any idea how many turned out in Dresden this evening? That might be the more significant one yet
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thats a very poor comparison. If it's insinuated that there was any less outrage at what happened then that is totally wrong. The ideologies of brevik and the Islamists are very similar
 
clivex said:
The march sends a clear message that they and we will not be intimidated by a disgusting branch of a generally intolerant religion.

it was powerful. It was more than the cartoons. They need to clearly know the contempt we hold for them.
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Couldn't agree more with that.
 
clivex said:
thats a very poor comparison. If it's insinuated that there was any less outrage at what happened then that is totally wrong. The ideologies of brevik and the Islamists are very similar
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No it's not. And although I asked the question about how many European leaders went to Oslo and you didn't answer, I'm sure if you took a guess, you'd be right

There's something different about the landscape of Europe now though, and that's what makes it a valid comparison. Even in the 4 years since. You could be cynical of course and suggest that France is a major European power, Paris is an easily accessible capital, and it happened in January rather than July - these might be contributing factors, but today's turn out wasn't limited to European powers either

How many French politicians came over to London in solidarity after the 7/7 bombings, or Madrid? I don't recall that many? In fact what I recall is the French were being slightly smug and superior about the whole thing having led the opposition against the invasion of Iraq. There was something of an undeclared 'serves you right' about it, even though they were clearly rattled about the amount of ground they were losing by way of favour with the US

We don't sense that now though do we? Something has changed. None of our body politik have quite gone so far to say it, but there seems to be a tacit realisation that this is starting to get nearer to home now and that we will 'all be in it together' sooner rather than later (if we aren't already)
 
Maybe people don't dislike the French as much as they seem to dislike the British? Perhaps I'm just a bit paranoid about that?
 
When you want 'fair and balanced' reporting that concentrates on the facts, look no further than Fox News, and their experts

Now in fairness he's apologised for his error, and any one can make a mistake, but then he follows it up with this inexcusable description.....

He said he would be issuing an apology on his website for "this comment about the beautiful city of Birmingham".

Oh come on. Now that's just irresponsible. Talk about sticking your viewers away

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30773297

One assumes a second apology is on the way?
 
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Warbs, you questioned Clivex's political compass a few months back, now I see you're not backing Ed Milliband in May and instead thinking Davy Cameron is a political shrewdie. I take it you done some soul searching of late?
 
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icebreaker said:
Can I just say that I am glad that my Prime Minister ( Kenny) attended the remembrance march today. I would have been annoyed if he wasn't.
I couldn't be there myself, so it was good that there was an official embodiment of our country's sentiment present in Paris.
And that's what it is; Cameron, Kenny, Merkel and the rest were there in a representative capacity as leaders -- conveying the sympathy and solidarity of their respective countries.
That's the way I see it.
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Spot on. The only people trying to politicise their presence appear to be Warbler and Kotki.
 
Grasshopper said:
Spot on. The only people trying to politicise their presence appear to be Warbler and Kotki.
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Myself, Warbler and Enda... Let's not forget Enda...

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/enda-kenny-joins-paris-unity-march-30898245.html

Not that I necessarily disagree with the gist of his message, but it is heavily politicised. Were it a visit solely of sympathy, condolence and memoriam then your presentation of his attendance would be accurate. However, the words sympathy, condolence, memory or any other synonym to that effect fail to appear in his statements.
 
True, but the following words are said:

"Je Suis Charlie, nous sommes tous Parisiens."
Today, I say to President Hollande and his government and to the people of France and of our Union - may our presence and witness here deepen our sense of brotherhood and sisterhood.
He said as Europeans they must nourish democracy, protect our liberty, cherish our way of life.
"And in the face of terror may our humanity sustain us and renew us.
[FONT=Georgia, serif]"May it be as shattering as our sadness and our silence on this January day."[/FONT]

Everything is a matter of interpretation, of course, but his message is clear to me, and it isn't a political one.
 
Grasshopper said:
Spot on. The only people trying to politicise their presence appear to be Warbler and Kotki.
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Yes. It's pretty tasteless to say the least.All this "ah yes! but what about oslo! what about ferguson! "

Pretty juvenile
 
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clivex said:
Yes. It's pretty tasteless to say the least. Why can't the students go back to college and fck off
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I believe were now in "Play Nice" mode, Clivex, and we don't want a repeat of the stuff on the other thread with EC (who I sincerely hope returns soon)......so, play nice. :)
 
clivex said:
Yes. It's pretty tasteless to say the least.All this "ah yes! but what about oslo! what about ferguson! "

Pretty juvenile
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Indeed, pretty tasteless of all those politicians to politicise the event.

Grasshopper said:
I believe were now in "Play Nice" mode, Clivex, and we don't want a repeat of the stuff on the other thread with EC (who I sincerely hope returns soon)......so, play nice. :)
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He told me to fck off? :'(
 
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I think that the success of the march has got under the skin of some who dare not really admit it.

the complaints about world leasers attending is bizarre in the first instance but logical if you think it through from the perspective of "how can I slag this off"
 
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The streets of Paris were packed yesterday with good intention but try as I might, it's difficult to get too caught up in the sentimentality of it all. It wasn't the dawn of a new age of peace, freedom and unity. It was a fleeting feelgood moment which, unfortunately, will have little meaningful impact on the future of humanity. Although I truly hope I'm wrong, it can only be described as a success against limited parameters...

As for the politicians, they are not Charlie, nor are they the people. They are cynical, opportunistic hypocrites. Some more so than others, but they all appear on that sliding scale. Their absence would not have detracted from the march one iota.
 
clivex said:
I think that the success of the march has got under the skin of some who dare not really admit it.
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Sorry have I missed something? What success? Have ISIL surrendered and laid down their weapons overnight?

I'd like to point out (with supreme irony), that the same number of people (probably more) marched in London against the initial war in Iraq (me included) if you want to play the numbers game Clive, then that was successful too, except that it wasn't. Everyone went back to work on Monday and the government took no notice and did what they were always going to do. I think most of us knew it was likely to be little more than gesture from a pretty powerless body of people. Similarly, any success you think happened yesterday is likely to be you clinging to a childs comfort blanket until such time as you see it backed up with substantive actions. (I don't count a meeting of European Home Secretaries as substantive - they meet in the council of ministers on a regular basis already). The threat is still there Clive, and slogans and pens won't beat it. Nothings changed.
 
Perhaps you should see it for what it really was? A huge fck off to the Islamists and their apologists.

a right good kicking for a bigotry that is absolutely despised.

of course not everyone is going to like that are they? It really would appear to have bothered some. Got under their skin a bit?

aside from that I think most who don't have any time for those that gun down cartoonists and those that are of the wrong identity would find the sneering that their march was "sentimental" pretty ofoffensive.
 
Warbler said:
Sorry have I missed something? What success? Have ISIL surrendered and laid down their weapons overnight?

I'd like to point out (with supreme irony), that the same number of people (probably more) marched in London against the initial war in Iraq (me included) if you want to play the numbers game Clive, then that was successful too, except that it wasn't. Everyone went back to work on Monday and the government took no notice and did what they were always going to do. I think most of us knew it was likely to be little more than gesture from a pretty powerless body of people. Similarly, any success you think happened yesterday is likely to be you clinging to a childs comfort blanket until such time as you see it backed up with substantive actions. (I don't count a meeting of European Home Secretaries as substantive - they meet in the council of ministers on a regular basis already). The threat is still there Clive, and slogans and pens won't beat it. Nothings changed.
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Pathetic. Beneath contempt
 
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