Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2012

Euronymous said:
It's one or two pounds either way. Not enough to be arsed with really.
Click to expand...
I think if I owned a 4yo beaten a short-head in the Arc by a 3yo that had an unfair advantage I'd be arsed but I don't think there is any advantage/disadvantage either way. I just get annoyed when people cite the wfa allowance as one.

As others have suggested, maybe the way forward is to make the 4yo season the classic season. That would put the argument to bed.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I think if I owned a 4yo beaten a short-head in the Arc by a 3yo that had an unfair advantage I'd be arsed but I don't think there is any advantage/disadvantage either way. I just get annoyed when people cite the wfa allowance as one.

As others have suggested, maybe the way forward is to make the 4yo season the classic season. That would put the argument to bed.
Click to expand...

wfa is something so obvious that I wonder how we still care to reply trying to explain what it is.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I think if I owned a 4yo beaten a short-head in the Arc by a 3yo that had an unfair advantage I'd be arsed but I don't think there is any advantage/disadvantage either way. I just get annoyed when people cite the wfa allowance as one.

As others have suggested, maybe the way forward is to make the 4yo season the classic season. That would put the argument to bed.
Click to expand...

Read this. A number of us have been arguing this position for years.

http://www.broughscott.com/story.asp?NewsID=285

I doubt that Danedream is up to winning the Arc as an older horse. She wouldn’t be on my mind for this year’s renewal.
 
Also an extract from something I wrote after last year's race:

THREE-YEAR-OLDS have again dominated Europe’s premier all-age middle-distance race, the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, with the fillies Danedream and Shareta (Sarafina’s pacemaker) filling the first two places. Since 1990, 17 three-year-olds have now won the Arc.

But can we call Danedream a European/world middle-distance champion? Probably not. She received 8lb from the third, Snow Fairy, and 11lb from the fourth So You Think, who were beaten five lengths and just over five lengths, due to the generosity of the weight-for-age (WFA) system, which offers three-year olds a huge advantage at this time of year. If those at Racing For Change want to make a real step for change (and steal a march on the French), why not create at least one new true championship race in which entire horses, mares, geldings, colts and fillies, regardless of age, all carry the same weight? This would give us a true champion and have the additional benefit of attracting horses to stay in training past their three-year-old seasons.

By all means keep the WFA scale for those races in which we may want to hand the three-year-olds an advantage. But for races where we want to see a true champion land the spoils let us have a race that gives us just that.

We need to reappraise whether the WFA scale, introduced by Admiral Rous in the mid-19th century (subject to periodic tweaking), has any relevance for such so-called championship races.

Brough Scott once wrote in a Racing Post article: “The weight-for-age scale in these championship races is a sacred cow that has needed slaughtering for years.”

I couldn’t agree more. Come on RFC, make a change that makes some sense.
 
Last edited:
Brough Scott is the only person I'll sit down and read what they've got to say.

More times he's right than wrong and epitomizes what a fantastic articulate gentleman he is.

The epitome of class, he really is.
 
sunybay said:
wfa is something so obvious that I wonder how we still care to reply trying to explain what it is.
Click to expand...

I think most of us understand what weight-for-age is suny. The question is, should it be applied in so-called championship races.
 
SteveM said:
I think most of us understand what weight-for-age is suny. The question is, should it be applied in so-called championship races.
Click to expand...

Yes. But the scale needs tweaking. I would argue as the thoroughbred in general gets faster and training methods improve it has to be possible that they are getting more precocious. Hence the need to tweak the WFA allowance. But I maintain that the main reason 3yos have a better record in the race is that they appear to be better prepared for it.
 
we've been here many times Steve

a couple of questions

1. Do you believe 3yo's are fully mature in the Autumn of that year?
2. How good do you think all age G1 races would be without 3yo's?

i ask the 2nd question..because if i owned a 3yo I wouldn't run it against any older horses without the wfa allowance..and i think many would keep away from all age races..
 
I’ve nothing against a WFA scale (and one that reduces the difference as the season progresses is clearly the right way to go), but if you want to call a race a true championship, all comers regardless of age or sex should compete off level weights.

Horses do not stop growing of maturing until they are at least four, which is why I’m happy for a WFA scale to remain for races other than those deemed championship events.
 
SteveM said:
I’ve nothing against a WFA scale (and one that reduces the difference as the season progresses is clearly the right way to go), but if you want to call a race a true championship, all comers regardless of age or sex should compete off level weights.

Horses do not stop growing of maturing until they are at least four, which is why I’m happy for a WFA scale to remain for races other than those deemed championship events.
Click to expand...


but you will pay a price for that decision..list the last 30 Arc's..remove all 3yo's..and have a long look at the "winners"

very disappointing..now do that with all G1's

i wouldn't aim my 3yo at a race against older horses..we have owners on here..would any of you target a race where you are disadvantaged by having to run your not fully mature horse against older horses?
 
Euronymous said:
But I maintain that the main reason 3yos have a better record in the race is that they appear to be better prepared for it.
Click to expand...

They are only better prepared because they have a clear advantage at the weights. If it were a level playing field connections of older horses would be more inclined to keep good horses in training and the older horses would begin to win rather than a 3yo with a concession, as it is now.
 
EC1 said:
but you will pay a price for that decision..list the last 30 Arc's..remove all 3yo's..and have a long look at the "winners"

very disappointing..now do that with all G1's

i wouldn't aim my 3yo at a race against older horses..we have owners on here..would any of you target a race where you are disadvantaged by having to run your not fully mature horse against older horses?
Click to expand...

You do pay a price... but consider the horses that would have been kept in training and not retired before becoming a mature. These are what you would be gaining.
 
Last edited:
SteveM said:
You do pay a price... but consider the horses that would have been kept in training and not retired before becoming a mature. These are what you would be gaining.
Click to expand...

Camelot may never see an older horse..they won't keep him in training to do so..so why would other trainers do so..so i don't see that argument
 
EC1 said:
Camelot may never see an older horse..they won't keep him in training to do so..so why would other trainers do so..so i don't see that argument
Click to expand...

They'd be a much bigger incentive to stay in training and many would. As it stands why would Camelot be kept in training as an older horse?... but with the carrot of a true championship race that he would stand a fairer chance of winning as an older horse he might well be campaigned for longer.

As it stands it makes sense for him to claim the wfa and go for the Arc this year. If a below par STS could win so can Camelot. Hopefully they won't do the sensible thing and shoot for immortality in the St Leger.

If championship races were run as they should be he could do both.
 
Bar the Bull said:
No wfa, no 3yo in the Arc or Irish/English Champion Stakes.

They'd be **** races
Click to expand...

Not if better older horses were contesting them. And if they thought a 3yo was good enough (like STS) they would run them anyway. As it is many sub-standard 3yos (as well as those that aren't sub-standard) are winning these end of season championship races because they are so advantaged.
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of sense in what Euro says. El Condor Pasa was ony just beaten by the great Montjeu as a 4yo and his campaign was purely geared towards the Arc. Montjeu was then beaten into 4th in the Japan Cup by his elders....
 
SteveM said:
As it stands it makes sense for him to claim the wfa and go for the Arc this year. If a below par STS could win so can Camelot.
Click to expand...

SteveM, why do you suggest that Sea The Stars was below par? He quickened up well from a poor position to win nicely. I don't know if he 'ran to' a particular rating in winning that race, but whatever, that is not the same as being below par when he was not all out to win well.
 
uncle goober said:
SteveM, why do you suggest that Sea The Stars was below par? He quickened up well from a poor position to win nicely. I don't know if he 'ran to' a particular rating in winning that race, but whatever, that is not the same as being below par when he was not all out to win well.
Click to expand...

i completely agree

this where handicap ratings fall short in measuring what a horse has actually achieved within a race.
 
SteveM said:
Not if better older horses were contesting them. And if they thought a 3yo was good enough (like STS) they would run them anyway. As it is many sub-standard 3yos (as well as those that aren't sub-standard) are winning these end of season championship races because they are so advantaged.
Click to expand...

i might be wrong here..but are not top 3yo's put to stud partly due to owners not wanting them to sustain an injury..ie the longer you race the more chance of something bad happening..injury or accident etc

i just can't see such as Camelot..or many other top 3yo.. who could just stick to winning 3yo only races bother with being campaigned at 4yo.

can you name a poor 3yo that won the Arc due to getting wfa?
 
Last edited:
Could it not just be a case of owners wanting to win the race with their best stallion prospects, such as Coolmore and Camelot this year. And put simply, if you've kept a horse in training as a four year old and not sent it to the breeding sheds in this day and age it probably means its not good enough to win the Arc anyway.
Unless of course it missed the race as a 3yo through injury or whatever.

Its a sign of the times but just the way it is.

The only other option is to scrap the wfa allowance, but in doing so allow more older horses to win it, and in the process damage the stallion prospects on the leading players in the bloodstock industry. Will that happen?
 
Last edited:
what Steve is saying is that Youmazain was a better horse than Zarkava and Sea The Stars on Arc day,
 
sunybay said:
what Steve is saying is that Youmazain was a better horse than Zarkava and Sea The Stars on Arc day,
Click to expand...

A horse who has never won the Arc can be better on Arc day than two Arc winners?

Please, where does he get off on all this?
 
Back
Top