As I said before, what concerns me is not the cost of getting the owner to Dieppe, Auteuil, Pau or wherever. It's the cost of getting the horse there and back. Too many posters are giving the impression that it would be a "given" for UK-trained jumpers to win good prize money racing in France. If that were the case I'd be as keen as anybody, but I'm not aware of our horses having such a glorious record when they do compete over there.
Punchestown British Trainers
- Thread starter harry
- Start date
Pretty much what I was about to say.
I never expected to make money or even cover my costs but I went into it with my eyes open.
Martin, you make good points and I understand what you're saying but say for instance it cost me £200 all in to get there and back, plus a few bets. If he didn't win that would be a good chunk of my annual prize allocation gone..
I'm speaking from a different perspective to some owners because i'm involved so I can go the races, cheer my own horse and jump round excitedly when he wins once a season. Approaching it from a commercial or money making viewpoint is not something that ever crossed my mind. In all honesty I would invest in a flat horse if I wanted to do that.
I think it really depends on what you want out of ownership.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Fair point Aragorn and I appreciate that for syndicates and syndicate members it might not be a great idea to go there all the time but there are races to be won I'm sure with the right type of horse, particularly if you have one that's already been there and done it so to speak as the Pipe horse Notus De La Tour has.
I appreciate the costs involved are likely to be high but so are the rewards - it's a speculate to accumulate mentality and if it doesn't work then fair enough but you never know unless you try.
I'm not sure who the first person to ever run a horse from over here in France was but the likes of Jonathon Jay did well out of it with Tidal Fury whilst Willie Mullins (a much larger trainer) has done well with a few of his raids as has Edward O'Grady and a lot of the flat trainers do it at Cagnes-Sur-Mer and Deauville.
Michael, a top 5 finish in an ok conditions hurdle in France would bring in circa 4,000 Euro's - I doubt it would cost that much to travel a horse to France and back, and if you go to the big meeting in November they cover your expenses but I take your point regarding travel costs.
Nick Williams took a horse straight out of a Maiden P2P to Auteuil last November and picked up some good prize money with it.
I appreciate the costs involved are likely to be high but so are the rewards - it's a speculate to accumulate mentality and if it doesn't work then fair enough but you never know unless you try.
I'm not sure who the first person to ever run a horse from over here in France was but the likes of Jonathon Jay did well out of it with Tidal Fury whilst Willie Mullins (a much larger trainer) has done well with a few of his raids as has Edward O'Grady and a lot of the flat trainers do it at Cagnes-Sur-Mer and Deauville.
Michael, a top 5 finish in an ok conditions hurdle in France would bring in circa 4,000 Euro's - I doubt it would cost that much to travel a horse to France and back, and if you go to the big meeting in November they cover your expenses but I take your point regarding travel costs.
Nick Williams took a horse straight out of a Maiden P2P to Auteuil last November and picked up some good prize money with it.
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But Irish owners aren't complaining about their prize money in the way that British ones are, are they? As far as I can see, you've fairly decent returns for your investments - what you have not got in your favour is loads more runners per race to beat!
The topic is about British trainers not taking their horses out of the country to hunt for bigger returns - be it in France, or Ireland, or Timbuktu. If you have a good Irish horse in Ireland who's regularly chucking a few Euros towards his keep, you may well feel why bother to go elsewhere? You sure as hell wouldn't come to Britain unless it was to compete at the very highest levels!
The topic is about British trainers not taking their horses out of the country to hunt for bigger returns - be it in France, or Ireland, or Timbuktu. If you have a good Irish horse in Ireland who's regularly chucking a few Euros towards his keep, you may well feel why bother to go elsewhere? You sure as hell wouldn't come to Britain unless it was to compete at the very highest levels!
Sheikh
At the Start
Prize money has fallen but is still reasonable here. The no. of runners has fallen also.
I don't think it's unreasonable for owners of horses in the U.K to expect a decent prize should they win the occasional race and to whinge about the fact that the money is crap.
I don't think it's unreasonable for owners of horses in the U.K to expect a decent prize should they win the occasional race and to whinge about the fact that the money is crap.
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Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
There's nothing wrong with a discussion on it which should be along the following lines:
Owners: We want more money when we win a Class 2 or 3 race
BHA: We'd love to help but there are external influences taking money out of British racing, however in France you can race for £25,000 if you want or for £15,000 at a provincial track, some will even pay for your travel at a certain meeting in November
Owners: Oh that's brilliant, thank you we'll look into that.
Rather than the current Owners answer of "oh ok, we'll give that a miss and just keep up with the moaning thanks".
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Will you keep up with the moaning about their moaning?
Because if you do, I promise to keep up with my moaning about your moaning about their moaning.
Because if you do, I promise to keep up with my moaning about your moaning about their moaning.
Sheikh
At the Start
Sounds like the owners in the UK need stronger and more radical leadership rather than the bunch of spineless whiners that they seem to have.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Michael, no-one is suggesting that the travel costs for getting a horse from, say, Lambourn to Auteuil are cheaper than getting it from Labourn to Ascot. But the reward of increased prize-money available in France - across all classes - surely offsets some of that risk?
The reason trainers from the British Isles have relatively little success at Auteuil is because they would rather prep their animals for the Hennessy or BetFair or Nicholson, than run in the Jousellin; despite the fact that the winning prize-money for the Jousellin equates to roughly the value of the Betfair and Nicholson combined.
The Grande Steeplechase de Paris meeting in May is a complete after-thought - that's if it's even under consideration at all - because horses tend to be targeted at Cheltenham then Aintree then Punchestown instead, and are considered over-the-top by the time May comes. No matter that there's stacks of cash on offer for the GSdP a handful of weeks later, a race routinely run on ground far more suitable to some than they would likely encounter at Aintree and Punchestown (and occassionally Cheltenham for that matter).
Let's use Tidal Bay as our example horse. He was out-classed in the Gold Cup, handicapped out of the National, and in his box for Punchestown. For his two runs at the spring Festivals, he picked-up the princely sum of £6,700. A horse like Tidal Bay would have a huge chance in something like the GSdP. It's a marathon 3m5f, usually run in soft ground, and where he'd rated within 5lbs of the best horse in the race. If he only finished 6th at Auteuil, he'd collect nearly twenty-eight grand, and if he finished in the places, he'd be lifting over a hundred-grand for the Wylies. For an owner who sees little in the way of a return on his huge investment, targetting a race like the GSdP would at least help offset some of his costs; even if money really is no object to him.
I'm not suggesting the GSdP should become a target for every top-class chaser in the British Isles. But the race is well within the compass of horses who presently spend most of their time staring-up the backsides of a handful of others who are a mile clear on class, and connections are missing a trick (imo) by not looking at this race as an alternative to running under 11-5+ in the National, or being out-classed on unsuitable ground at Punchestown.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Grass, the example you picked, Tidal Bay, is trained by Howard Johnson and my perception is that he's not one for thinking 'outside the box'.
On the other hand is owners give a different impression.
On the other hand is owners give a different impression.
Grassy, I definitely see the logic of your argument for horses rated 160-ish who find it nearly impossible to win Grade 1s in the UK. Opportunities are there in France for a big payday, even for finishing 2nd or 3rd. But for us lesser mortals who tend to have horses in the 120-130 category (if we're lucky), I'm not so sure that the same arguments apply.
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Explain to me how Colm gets to a French track in an hour. He leaves to go to Cheltenham at 6pm and arrives in Cheltenham at 6am. He knows what he needs to bring to win, knows what the ground will be like and their whole season has been aimed at that race. He doesn't do the Gordon Elliott thing of bringing heaps of horses on a trip to win a few grand when he can win races in Ireland that have €6k to the winner of a bad handicap.
Why does Gordon Elliott bring heaps of horses to the UK. It's not for the money! Who knows why they do it. Gordon does it for a good time and to win some sort of race with horses he knows will struggle at home. What did Dave Parry say were the complications? He's brought a horse to the Pardubice and learnt from the mistake. Also, the French fences are not the same as ours. Might seem a simple point and one to correct but I'm afraid you have to make the financial commitment before you collect any prizemoney. It's easy for you to say it when you might not have that decision to make, but Grassy, tell me a race for Only The Best next season in France? Or pick one of Colm's ordinary horses. What race, how much it can pick up, how much it costs etc.
He gets a lot of kudos for winning copious amounts of bad races with horses that he picks up off other people. I'd focus on Jessies Dream, Steps to Freedom, Carlito Brigante etc and judge him on what he does with those (which is good by the way). He's improving his quality of horse now, so let the kudos begin now, not for what he achieved in making his owners nothing. It was a clever marketing ploy by his employer to get more horses into the yard.
I also know a few people who used to work there and know the story with Alladins Cave. Neither of which would put him in a great light.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Cantoris can you tell us more without getting into trouble?
Cantoris can you tell us more without getting into trouble?
Aladdins had a foot problem which should have been picked up previously. Suffice to say that some that have worked there wouldn't be overly complimentary of the training regime, albeit it does get winners in the same way that Martin Pipe got winners en masse. And as far as I know, Elliott is an employee, which I'd imagine he will want to change and may require him to move to do so. I could say more, but I won't on a public forum.
I don't know Gordon and the closest I have ever got to him was a side step from me as he took out half the bar in 21 Club. I don't know if he is a nice guy or a cowboy. All I'm saying is that his marketing machine is massive and many advertisers would be proud of it. He still has some way to go to get himself to the top of the tree but the better quality horses should get him there in the future.
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You know I'm biased but I'll beat the drum again. 9 graded wins from 3 separate horses this season. To have won championship grade 1s with a ten year old and eleven year old, and a grade 1 with a mare is not bad going from a stable half the size of Elliott. And that's before talking about Aladdins. I am biased and Hamm knows it!!
On The Bridle
At the Start
Elliott has made a name for himself at the expense of a number of his owners winning sellers at Perth and the likes. This has served him well and his PR machine which includes his part-time journalist fiancée has helped this profile. It will be very interesting to see will he have the patience with a horse of Mount Benbulben's indoubted potential.
The jury is very much out with me - I wouldn't consider giving him a NH horse ahead of Noel Meade, Paul Nolan, Colm Murphy, Henry De Bromhead, Dessie Hughes, Eddie O'Grady, Jessica Harrington to name but a few.
The jury is very much out with me - I wouldn't consider giving him a NH horse ahead of Noel Meade, Paul Nolan, Colm Murphy, Henry De Bromhead, Dessie Hughes, Eddie O'Grady, Jessica Harrington to name but a few.
Elliot had a better strike rate than Murphy in Ireland last year and won plenty of graded races as well. He also had a decent strike rate in the UK and won a few more big races.
I respect runners from both yards though and think they are both very good trainers.
I respect runners from both yards though and think they are both very good trainers.
Sheikh
At the Start
My picks in Bold. I think Harrington is a one of the top three trainers in Ireland...... discuss ....
Anyone know about her operation ?
He doesn't (can't) know what he needs to win and he knows only what the ground is like as far as the clerk of the course tells him (until he gets there).
I am obviously being flippant regarding the hour comment. France is little further than England. If he isn't open minded enough to research the ground and likely opposition (like you say he does for Cheltenham) then that says more about him than I can.
I don't know why you feel the need to have a go at Elliott. I am sure you could make good points about why he is a schmuck but I'm not hearing any!
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Michael, what does a 115-rated horse usually race for in winning prize-money? Between £3-£4K? Rub out expenses, and the owner is going to trouser £3K at the top end, and if he is a syndicate member, he'll maybe get enough to cover a couple of months training fees. If the same owner/syndicate ran his/their horse in a 0-125 equivalent race in France, they might be looking at a winning-pot worth in the order of £12K. Even if expenses jumped to 50%, he/they would trouser £6K. They would probably break-even for third-place, and have had a good old jolly to Paris in the process. Speaking only for myself - strictly a small-time syndicate participant - that kind of uplift in return-on-investment, might make the difference between buying into another syndicate or joining the golf club.
Oran, David didn't go into specifics, but mentioned a variety of challenges; from the cost of travel (undoubtedly increased, I would agree), to race suitability (a moot point, imo), to the gaps left in the yard if long-term travel is involved (which seemed fair enough to me).
Again, I'm not saying these challenges aren't legitimate, only that they are assuredly not insurmountable; not least when Macaire/Doumen have done the reverse for years, and when Ferdy himself seems quite able to take Lucky Nellerie all the way to Pardubice (on more than one occassion) without the yard going up in flames in his absence.
As for Only The Best, you might be right. I've scoured the France-Galop programme book, and I can't find a seller that he's good enough to enter.
(No offence DP, if you're looking in
).
Oran, David didn't go into specifics, but mentioned a variety of challenges; from the cost of travel (undoubtedly increased, I would agree), to race suitability (a moot point, imo), to the gaps left in the yard if long-term travel is involved (which seemed fair enough to me).
Again, I'm not saying these challenges aren't legitimate, only that they are assuredly not insurmountable; not least when Macaire/Doumen have done the reverse for years, and when Ferdy himself seems quite able to take Lucky Nellerie all the way to Pardubice (on more than one occassion) without the yard going up in flames in his absence.
As for Only The Best, you might be right. I've scoured the France-Galop programme book, and I can't find a seller that he's good enough to enter.
(No offence DP, if you're looking in
).
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