Been following Paddy Brennan's tweets and he's over to France a bit with Tom George horses. I find it odd that it's actually hard to get info...I looked up Tartak earlier and his last run was still listed as Aintree. It's like a horse going into a point to point. It does seem remarkably short sighted in a globalised world. I know the ground tends to be heavy in Auteuil or softer, and for those horses, June is holiday time...but still...there is money there to be won
Punchestown British Trainers
- Thread starter harry
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Simon
At the Start
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He was 5th in the Prix Ingre (Grade 3), behind Mid Dancer, Hamm. He picked up £6,896.55 for his efforts, which more than paid his transport and when you consider you pick up £4,824.00 for finishing 5th in the King George it's well worth the visit.
Maybe if you live in Folkestone. For most yards in England it would be at least 200miles to get to the Chunnel terminal. Then maybe another 200 miles on the other side. The road transport, plus the channel crossing, could well exceed £1000 for the round trip -- and considerably more for a horse trained in Ireland.
It would certainly make me think twice.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
When trainers are travelling 400 miles to race for £3,500 it makes little sense to argue the distance angle when for around three times the travelling distance you can race for 5, 6, 7 etc. times the prize money.
I doubt it's as simple as just taking the box to the ferry terminal and loading it up after paying your £150 ferry fee but the racecourse at Dieppe is about 1.5km away from the ferry and I'm sure they'd be pretty accomodating for overnight trips etc. (I know one flat trainer ran at least 2 at the course last year, there's one Newmarket trainer considering it and there was a South East trained pointer who ran in a race there last Summer too).
Given that races are often framed on the basis of cash won in a period of time (say 12 months) then it makes sense to take horses who've been well beaten in Graded horses over, particularly if they started their careers in France. It amazed me that it took the owners around 18 months to realise that Pepite De Soleil would be better off racing back in France (where incidentally she won her first start in a FM Hurdle) and Dolatulo is now back in France too.
Bobbyjo - http://www2.france-galop.com/FGWeb/domaines/courses/courses_calendrier.aspx has a list of all the upcoming races in France, Auteil, Enghien and Compiegne are were most of the British runners will be.
I know from speaking to someone connected to the yard that at least one trainer has his horses stabled in Chantilly whilst targeting French races - and with some good successes too, three runners for a win and two thirds.
Most French jump racing takes place from April to October - however the big courses (the two Paris ones and the two in the South of France) aren't racing then so it's mainly provincial tracks and courses like the previously mentioned Dieppe, Le Touquet and others in Brittany/Normandy that are racing. The prize money is still much better than over here at a lot of these tracks and as Grassy says the competition is weaker, generally a top Chase can be won with a 160 or so horse.
I doubt it's as simple as just taking the box to the ferry terminal and loading it up after paying your £150 ferry fee but the racecourse at Dieppe is about 1.5km away from the ferry and I'm sure they'd be pretty accomodating for overnight trips etc. (I know one flat trainer ran at least 2 at the course last year, there's one Newmarket trainer considering it and there was a South East trained pointer who ran in a race there last Summer too).
Given that races are often framed on the basis of cash won in a period of time (say 12 months) then it makes sense to take horses who've been well beaten in Graded horses over, particularly if they started their careers in France. It amazed me that it took the owners around 18 months to realise that Pepite De Soleil would be better off racing back in France (where incidentally she won her first start in a FM Hurdle) and Dolatulo is now back in France too.
Bobbyjo - http://www2.france-galop.com/FGWeb/domaines/courses/courses_calendrier.aspx has a list of all the upcoming races in France, Auteil, Enghien and Compiegne are were most of the British runners will be.
I know from speaking to someone connected to the yard that at least one trainer has his horses stabled in Chantilly whilst targeting French races - and with some good successes too, three runners for a win and two thirds.
Most French jump racing takes place from April to October - however the big courses (the two Paris ones and the two in the South of France) aren't racing then so it's mainly provincial tracks and courses like the previously mentioned Dieppe, Le Touquet and others in Brittany/Normandy that are racing. The prize money is still much better than over here at a lot of these tracks and as Grassy says the competition is weaker, generally a top Chase can be won with a 160 or so horse.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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That's rather the point I was trying to make, Krizon.
French Jumps self-evidently does not carry anything like the same prestige however, otherwise UK and Irish trainers surely wouldn't hesitate to raid the biggest pots, which - the National, Gold Cup and Champion Hurdle apart - tend to dwarf those on offer at similar levels domestically.
To be honest, Grassy, thinking on that issue (prestige), I would cast that aside were I a Britain-based owner or trainer. There is huge prestige in winning top Flat races because you've probably got an entire or a filly you have got lined up for stud/breeding duties after they've won. The majority of chasers aren't mares, they're geldings. Thus, their raison d'etre is to win as much money as possible from racing, since there is no residual value in them at all. Ergo, it makes far more sense to run them where the biggest pots are (and without having to go too far afield to grab them), possibly risking them fewer times to potentially get a LOT more money - even from place prize money.
I wouldn't buy the prestige issue now that I think about it. You can risk a horse getting injured or worse for £3,000 here, minus all of the expenses, or you can send him to France and win a vast amount more in the same class. The risk factor's the same, wherever you run. There is no future for a gelded chaser. His job is to win races as many times as he can before he dies trying or is retired. That's the cold face of it. So why on earth would you not try for the top pots?
Perhaps the problem is a lack of imagination here in the UK? Or some sort of false vanity on the part of trainers, not wanting to lose in front of the French?
I wouldn't buy the prestige issue now that I think about it. You can risk a horse getting injured or worse for £3,000 here, minus all of the expenses, or you can send him to France and win a vast amount more in the same class. The risk factor's the same, wherever you run. There is no future for a gelded chaser. His job is to win races as many times as he can before he dies trying or is retired. That's the cold face of it. So why on earth would you not try for the top pots?
Perhaps the problem is a lack of imagination here in the UK? Or some sort of false vanity on the part of trainers, not wanting to lose in front of the French?
I think there is a prestige issue, Kriz, or maybe it's more accurate to call it a vanity issue.
If you have a horse that wins a nice little race at Dieppe nobody at home will even know it is running, whereas if it runs for a quarter of the money at Worcester your friends will be able to look at a race card in the paper, go to the track or drop into a bookies to see the race, and if it wins they might be available to celebrate with you.
If you have a horse that wins a nice little race at Dieppe nobody at home will even know it is running, whereas if it runs for a quarter of the money at Worcester your friends will be able to look at a race card in the paper, go to the track or drop into a bookies to see the race, and if it wins they might be available to celebrate with you.
BennyB
Senior Jockey
Grand Crus going to Auteil on 29th apparently.
Nail on the head.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
That's one heck of a price to pay for vanity though Grey - circa £9,000 if you win an ordinary handicap/conditions race.
To be fair - If I got told our horse was going to France i'd be pretty non-plussed unless it was for a prestigious race. For a lot of owners seeing the horse run in the flesh is what you're paying for - If i got a call at five day dec's stage saying we're going ti Dieppe i'm unlikely to ever go. It would be worse if I lived in Ireland!!!
If I had a grade 1 chaser though I would seriously consider the Grande Steeple Chase. as Grassy points out Pandorama would be ideal for it. I thought Denman would be a few years back but these days I don't think the course would suit.
If I had a grade 1 chaser though I would seriously consider the Grande Steeple Chase. as Grassy points out Pandorama would be ideal for it. I thought Denman would be a few years back but these days I don't think the course would suit.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
I don't hear you complaining about the prize money though Aragorn - and I doubt that your trainer would tell you at the 5 day stage it would be something that's planned in advance (Tom George is sending a moderate horse in Babe Hefron over by the looks of it for a Claiming Hurdle at Auteuil).
It's disheartening to hear owners say that the prize money is diabolical and then trainers talk about it being one of the major issues in British racing then when they're offered a highly lucrative alternative not a million miles away from here nobody (or next to nobody) seems to want to take it.
Btw Dieppe is a beautiful racecourse Aragorn as I hope you'll see from www.hippodrome-dieppe.com it's well worth a visit if in the area at least
It's disheartening to hear owners say that the prize money is diabolical and then trainers talk about it being one of the major issues in British racing then when they're offered a highly lucrative alternative not a million miles away from here nobody (or next to nobody) seems to want to take it.
Btw Dieppe is a beautiful racecourse Aragorn as I hope you'll see from www.hippodrome-dieppe.com it's well worth a visit if in the area at least
I do connect to what you're saying, Grassy, but as we all know how much it costs to keep a horse going, it doesn't make any financial sense whatsoever to be that vain! Okay, sure, if you have seriously deep pockets and can afford to cast aside ten grand - and as for Aragorn's point, you cannot be sure of seeing your horse run in the UK anyway. Unless you're retired and don't mind driving two hours to a course (or more) - or are so grand you have a chauffeur - you're not going to pay that much more for a cheap flight than at today's petrol prices, plus exhaustion. If you're based in, say, a lovely house in Dorset, you'll be hard pressed to find a course with good prize money near enough by to drive to and back in under 4 hours, and that's not counting delays for roadworks!
Martin - brilliant points, well made, about prize money. I can't imagine there would be any other pursuit where the outgoings are horrendous all year round (and, if you adhere to the 'proper' NH season, your horse may only run a handful of times during that year), and yet you'd give up the chance to make a lot more money by using the venues more judiciously.
It's all very well bleating about the crap UK prize money (which even the much-touted tariff has done little to impact), but it looks bizarrely perverse if you deliberately don't go in search of better prize money which is less distance away than London to Hamilton! If we forget about France being another country, the cost incurred in reaching the racecourse wouldn't be any more than a cheap day flight - although to give up the chance to do a bit of exploring and take a mini-hols at the same time would be a bit sad. That would compare well with a similar flight in-country, far less than hiring a helicopter, and far less exhausting and expensive than driving on British roads.
I'm afraid it all looks very 'Little Englander' to me. Very short-sighted and parochial.
Martin - brilliant points, well made, about prize money. I can't imagine there would be any other pursuit where the outgoings are horrendous all year round (and, if you adhere to the 'proper' NH season, your horse may only run a handful of times during that year), and yet you'd give up the chance to make a lot more money by using the venues more judiciously.
It's all very well bleating about the crap UK prize money (which even the much-touted tariff has done little to impact), but it looks bizarrely perverse if you deliberately don't go in search of better prize money which is less distance away than London to Hamilton! If we forget about France being another country, the cost incurred in reaching the racecourse wouldn't be any more than a cheap day flight - although to give up the chance to do a bit of exploring and take a mini-hols at the same time would be a bit sad. That would compare well with a similar flight in-country, far less than hiring a helicopter, and far less exhausting and expensive than driving on British roads.
I'm afraid it all looks very 'Little Englander' to me. Very short-sighted and parochial.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Financial sense and owning racehorses do not go hand in hand.
Very few people are in it for the money.
Bar - nobody expects to make it a profitable commercial concern as an owner - they are the last of the huge amount of people making dosh from them - and I am not implying that people are 'in it for the money' in the sense that they expect to make big returns. If people want to make money from racehorses, they become bookmakers or transporters, not owners.
But, it is really silly for British trainers (which is what the topic's about) to turn their backs on far better returns for their owners by not sending the horses over to France to raid the occasional pot. A vast amount of owners see their horses run in the flesh perhaps one time out of six - this is often because they have other commitments and can't get to the tracks, they live overseas themselves (one of Sheena West's best patrons lives in the US and has never seen one of his horses run), or they're a bit ancient and the trip would exhaust them if they drove it.
The average owner does not get out every time their horse runs, that's for sure. If you can, it's because you live near enough to both trainer and course.
Once again, it is not LOGICAL to not try to get the best returns for your owners! If the owners say, oh, no, we don't want to run him in France because we can't actually see him run, then it means that they can see him run in the UK and the prize money is nothing to them. But, believe me, if the horse was syndicated and you could say to the 20-strong gang of owners that you could bring them in £30,000 a year more, that they would enjoy fantastic and free hospitality, and that you could also probably arrange a trip to a local stud for a weekend jolly - do you honestly think they'd turn that down in lieu of a coach for a wet day at Bangor? As a trainer, you should be bigging-up the fact that the extra prize monies would mean they could afford to buy another, classy horse. And, if they had a chaser, that would be a very good idea, considering the rate at which they get banged up doing their work.
It isn't just about putting money in the bank for owners - it's also being able to say that that money would buy them a good new horse, and that would, naturally, bring you more business (and income) to your yard. Of course, if you as a trainer and all your owners are so screamingly rich you don't need new horses, that's another matter. But trainers go to France to raid their jumps horses all the time, to sell to owners in the UK. Fine - why not then say they will race in France from time to time, and that means even more horses to buy?
I cannot see an ounce of logic in not running for better money. And nobody means all the time - clearly, if you want a day out in the UK, you can still have it. But the prospect of winning enough to buy you another nag should surely be enticing, and encouraged? No?
Just to batter home the point - say your owners are in the south, but the best race for their horse is at Aintree. Prize money to win is £10,000. They may fork out several hundreds of pounds to get to Liverpool, stay at the Adelphi, take taxis, etc., etc. Knock the costs off the ten grand. But - you can take the horse to Auteuil and it can win £25,000. The costs for the owners won't be any more than lugging up to the north of England and back, but you show a £15,000 profit over the UK prize money. Why on earth wouldn't you do that? That's half a bloody good chaser bought!
But, it is really silly for British trainers (which is what the topic's about) to turn their backs on far better returns for their owners by not sending the horses over to France to raid the occasional pot. A vast amount of owners see their horses run in the flesh perhaps one time out of six - this is often because they have other commitments and can't get to the tracks, they live overseas themselves (one of Sheena West's best patrons lives in the US and has never seen one of his horses run), or they're a bit ancient and the trip would exhaust them if they drove it.
The average owner does not get out every time their horse runs, that's for sure. If you can, it's because you live near enough to both trainer and course.
Once again, it is not LOGICAL to not try to get the best returns for your owners! If the owners say, oh, no, we don't want to run him in France because we can't actually see him run, then it means that they can see him run in the UK and the prize money is nothing to them. But, believe me, if the horse was syndicated and you could say to the 20-strong gang of owners that you could bring them in £30,000 a year more, that they would enjoy fantastic and free hospitality, and that you could also probably arrange a trip to a local stud for a weekend jolly - do you honestly think they'd turn that down in lieu of a coach for a wet day at Bangor? As a trainer, you should be bigging-up the fact that the extra prize monies would mean they could afford to buy another, classy horse. And, if they had a chaser, that would be a very good idea, considering the rate at which they get banged up doing their work.
It isn't just about putting money in the bank for owners - it's also being able to say that that money would buy them a good new horse, and that would, naturally, bring you more business (and income) to your yard. Of course, if you as a trainer and all your owners are so screamingly rich you don't need new horses, that's another matter. But trainers go to France to raid their jumps horses all the time, to sell to owners in the UK. Fine - why not then say they will race in France from time to time, and that means even more horses to buy?
I cannot see an ounce of logic in not running for better money. And nobody means all the time - clearly, if you want a day out in the UK, you can still have it. But the prospect of winning enough to buy you another nag should surely be enticing, and encouraged? No?
Just to batter home the point - say your owners are in the south, but the best race for their horse is at Aintree. Prize money to win is £10,000. They may fork out several hundreds of pounds to get to Liverpool, stay at the Adelphi, take taxis, etc., etc. Knock the costs off the ten grand. But - you can take the horse to Auteuil and it can win £25,000. The costs for the owners won't be any more than lugging up to the north of England and back, but you show a £15,000 profit over the UK prize money. Why on earth wouldn't you do that? That's half a bloody good chaser bought!
Well then can't they shut up and stop whingeing about prize money?
:lol::lol:
Well, that would sure be what one would infer from an "Oh, no, we only want to run in the UK for (crap) money" attitude.
If you are so rich you don't need the returns from your horses: kindly shaddup about British prize money.
If you are not that rich and believe you're not being rewarded for your expenses and presenting betting mediums with its fodder: what the hell's stopping you from taking your horses elsewhere for much better prize money?
The answer can't be because our horses are rubbish and couldn't compete in France - after all, a whole load of them came from there in the first place, and the Irish-breds are easily the equal to the French.
The answer would appear to be the English love of doing feck-all while whinging about their situation.
Well, that would sure be what one would infer from an "Oh, no, we only want to run in the UK for (crap) money" attitude.
If you are so rich you don't need the returns from your horses: kindly shaddup about British prize money.
If you are not that rich and believe you're not being rewarded for your expenses and presenting betting mediums with its fodder: what the hell's stopping you from taking your horses elsewhere for much better prize money?
The answer can't be because our horses are rubbish and couldn't compete in France - after all, a whole load of them came from there in the first place, and the Irish-breds are easily the equal to the French.
The answer would appear to be the English love of doing feck-all while whinging about their situation.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
I am not disagreeing with either of you. I just think there are reasons why people do things other than money.
If prize money in Britain continues to be so poor, I think that in the long run most British owners will prefer to bow out of racing rather than buy horses to race in France.
Winning a race at Cluny wouldn't do it for them in the same way as having a winner at Hereford, for the reasons I've mentioned. Another factor is that anyone who likes a few quid on their horse won't get much joy, there's no such thing as early prices when betting on the tote.
Winning a race at Cluny wouldn't do it for them in the same way as having a winner at Hereford, for the reasons I've mentioned. Another factor is that anyone who likes a few quid on their horse won't get much joy, there's no such thing as early prices when betting on the tote.
You win your 12 grand race at Dieppe-what next-the local pub isn't going to be packed to the rafters with people wanting to celebrate with you.
I know a couple of lads who went to Auteuil as part of the Willie Mullins entourage a few years ago-found it fairly dull-despite the Grade 1 action.
I know if I was to have a runner with half a chance at Wolverhampton on a Friday night I could bring a crowd with me-If I had a certain winner at a minor French course it would be hard to get anyone interested including myself.
I know a couple of lads who went to Auteuil as part of the Willie Mullins entourage a few years ago-found it fairly dull-despite the Grade 1 action.
I know if I was to have a runner with half a chance at Wolverhampton on a Friday night I could bring a crowd with me-If I had a certain winner at a minor French course it would be hard to get anyone interested including myself.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
You're confusing Ireland with England Luke - over here there'll be a pub crammed full but they sure won't be watching Wolverhampton, they'll have Southend United vs. Colchester on instead and nobody in their will care about the Wolverhampton card. If people are into racing for a winner and aren't bothered about the prize money fair enough but there are more than enough complaining about it and still running at Wolver for tuppence, the prize money probably wouldn't cover the bar bill if you brought your mates over for a race at Dunstall Park!
If I won the lotto I'd buy 5 claimers at an American gaff track shown on SIS, find a nice Ladbrokes, Hills or an indy which shows the first few races from say Philly Park, put them all with different trainers and enter them all in the same race, carve up the result and have the exotics in the betting shops - is that just being greedy though??
If I won the lotto I'd buy 5 claimers at an American gaff track shown on SIS, find a nice Ladbrokes, Hills or an indy which shows the first few races from say Philly Park, put them all with different trainers and enter them all in the same race, carve up the result and have the exotics in the betting shops - is that just being greedy though??