Punchestown British Trainers

[Cantoris]

He doesn't (can't) know what he needs to win and he knows only what the ground is like as far as the clerk of the course tells him (until he gets there).

That's a load of rubbish. Weld knows exactly what to bring to Melbourne to win. Oxx knows what to bring to Ascot to win. And Colm knows what to bring to Cheltenham to win. That's why he's only run (as far as I remember) Cheeky Lady (3rd), Clew Bay Cove (5th), Zaarito (3rd), Brave Inca (1st), Big Zeb (1st) and then the black sheep Raise The Beat. He doesn't bring handicappers unless he feels they can go very close.

As for the ground. I walked the track on the Monday evening for four years in a row and, give or take, it was good to soft each time. Sometimes closer to good, sometimes closer to soft. But you know exactly what the ground is going to be on day one, give or take.

I am obviously being flippant regarding the hour comment. France is little further than England. If he isn't open minded enough to research the ground and likely opposition (like you say he does for Cheltenham) then that says more about him than I can.

If you aren't open minded enough to tell me how the logistics work, then you shouldn't pass comment on others. It's one thing going from the Curragh to Longchamp for group races but you don't even see the Irish flat trainers bringing a boatload over when they are travelling anyway.

I don't know why you feel the need to have a go at Elliott. I am sure you could make good points about why he is a schmuck but I'm not hearing any!

I keep my schmuck remarks to when you talk about the Queen Mother :lol:
As I said before, I don't know Elliott at all and he could be the nicest fella in the world, but he is a product of his marketing machine and while undoubtedly a good trainer and one who may be in the top five or the top three in the future, he has not achieved anything close to Murphy, Harrington et al.

 

[Cantoris]

Macaire/Doumen have done the reverse for years, and when Ferdy himself seems quite able to take Lucky Nellerie all the way to Pardubice (on more than one occassion) without the yard going up in flames in his absence.

As a matter of interest, what were the Macaire/Doumen horses and what were they racing in? Say over the last five years. And did they have multiple runners on one day.

I'm surprised that given Ferdy's personal connection with France that his man over there would not have recommended this to Ferdy years ago if it was such a sure bet. Without asking him, it does beg the question. Also, Willie has a very hit and miss record in France.

 

[Grey]

There was a period from about ten years ago to about five years ago when Doumen, Macaire and Claus Von Der Recke were regulars at the likes of Folkestone, Lingfield and the smaller Kempton jumps meetings, as well as the big King George and Cheltenham meetings. They haven't been as much in evidence in recent seasons.

 

[krizon]

Christian von der Recke, isn't it, Grey? I've searched for a Claus but only get Klauses related to old German royals.

 

[Grey]

You are right, Kriz.

 

[Grasshopper]

As a matter of interest, what were the Macaire/Doumen horses and what were they racing in? Say over the last five years. And did they have multiple runners on one day. I'm surprised that given Ferdy's personal connection with France that his man over there would not have recommended this to Ferdy years ago if it was such a sure bet. Without asking him, it does beg the question. Also, Willie has a very hit and miss record in France.

This is just being obtuse for it's own sake, Cantoris. Macaire's involvement tailed-off dramatically after Jair Du Cochet's demise, but as Grey has said, there was a period when he regularly brought horses over - and they were usually racing for a third of the prize-money they could have earned at home.

Who said it was a sure bet? Nobody. The reasons trainers records are "hit and miss" is because they never actually train their horses for the French Jumps festivals - they are trained for other targets.

Clearly, you don't like the idea of racing in France, for whatever reason. Given you run a relatively successful syndicates yourself, I'm surprised you don't give this some consideration, given the prize-money available. There was a Grade 3 handicap hurdle run at Auteuil on Sunday. Second place went to the distinctly average Rag Tiger - a horse that could be rated no higher than 120 - yet he won just under thirty-grand in prize-money.

If I was a Winning Ways syndicate member, spotted this opportunity, and was told it's simply too difficult and costly to get a horse to Auteuil, I would be disappointed - especially if the alternative was to run for E6,000 at a gaff track closer to home.

That's just me though, and I don't run syndicates.

 

[Hamm]

That's a load of rubbish. Weld knows exactly what to bring to Melbourne to win. Oxx knows what to bring to Ascot to win. And Colm knows what to bring to Cheltenham to win. That's why he's only run (as far as I remember) Cheeky Lady (3rd), Clew Bay Cove (5th), Zaarito (3rd), Brave Inca (1st), Big Zeb (1st) and then the black sheep Raise The Beat. He doesn't bring handicappers unless he feels they can go very close.

As for the ground. I walked the track on the Monday evening for four years in a row and, give or take, it was good to soft each time. Sometimes closer to good, sometimes closer to soft. But you know exactly what the ground is going to be on day one, give or take.



If you aren't open minded enough to tell me how the logistics work, then you shouldn't pass comment on others. It's one thing going from the Curragh to Longchamp for group races but you don't even see the Irish flat trainers bringing a boatload over when they are travelling anyway.



I keep my schmuck remarks to when you talk about the Queen Mother :lol:
As I said before, I don't know Elliott at all and he could be the nicest fella in the world, but he is a product of his marketing machine and while undoubtedly a good trainer and one who may be in the top five or the top three in the future, he has not achieved anything close to Murphy, Harrington et al.

The ground comment is a simplistic one. If you bothered to understand the times of races on day 1 of the past few years, you would see they are not all exactly the same, despite what Claisse or your feet may tell you.

To get to France from Ireland: Load horsebox. Drive to ferryport. Take ferry. Drive to course when you leave ferry. Unload horsebox. Sadly, it's not that much more complicated.

Do you not see the irony in you calling Elliot a marketing machine when you are similar for Colm Murphy?

 

[Irish Stamp]

There was a period from about ten years ago to about five years ago when Doumen, Macaire and Claus Von Der Recke were regulars at the likes of Folkestone, Lingfield and the smaller Kempton jumps meetings, as well as the big King George and Cheltenham meetings. They haven't been as much in evidence in recent seasons.

Macaire only brings horses that he thinks have a realistic chance of winning - he brought Royal Tune over for two starts last year, the first being a ridiculously easy success at Ffos Las.

It's true he's not brought too many over in recent years but he will travel one if he has the right horse and I remember reading an interview with him in Paris-Turf two years ago where he mentioned how much he loved British racing and how he refered to Martin Pipe as "The King of England" - also went into great detail about the circa 138 letters of condolence he received when Jair Du Cochet was PTS, 21 from France and 117 from the UK.

Macaire is a shrewd operator and works closely with British bloodstock agents to ensure the right horses are sent over here and sold to race in the UK - the likes of Silviniaco Conti who's unlikely to find his races/prove good enough for the top French hurdle races.

The best horses Macaire has had in recent years, the likes of Bel La Vie, Saint Macaire, Still Loving You, Allen Voran and Lucky To Be have primarily been in the age restricted races at Auteuil - ie. 3yo and 4yo Chases in the main and as such there'd be very few races suitable for them in the UK (in the case of the last 4 named that would be 4yo+ Open Chases) and it's unlikely that the Papot family would want to sell a horse as good as Bel La Vie. Of these it's unlikely that any other than Still Loving You will prove upto competing successfully in France's top chases due to the distance that they're run over and you'll likely see at least one or two of them competing in Claiming Chases within 2 years.

Macaire isn't scared of travelling a horse but more often than not in recent years the horses suitable to race in the UK have been sold on to UK trainers before he's had a chance to run them.

Personally I'd love to see Still Loving You run in a big staying handicap chase over here whilst Lucky To Be may prove an attractive proposition to someone as a half brother to Master Minded.

Of the current crop of Macaire youngsters Monpilou was only placed in a Graded Hurdle last time out and would still be a novice over fences for next season so may prove an attractive proposition over the Summer.

 

[Bar the Bull]

The ground comment is a simplistic one. If you bothered to understand the times of races on day 1 of the past few years, you would see they are not all exactly the same, despite what Claisse or your feet may tell you.

Let's be nice to one another. The point would have been the same if you had said:

The times of races on day 1 of the past few years suggests the ground was not all exactly the same, despite what Claisse or your feet may tell you.

 

[Hamm]

I wasn't being not nice. I am merely saying if you go to the trouble of understanding what the ground is actually like, as opposed to trusting Claisse or your feet (both thoroughly unreliable), then you would see how varied the ground has been.

I can give you my password if you would prefer to edit my posts?

 

[Grey]

I wasn't being not nice. I am merely saying if you go to the trouble of understanding what the ground is actually like, as opposed to trusting Claisse or your feet (both thoroughly unreliable), then you would see how varied the ground has been.

You are talking about an understanding of the ground derived post hoc from looking at the time it took to run the races. How are you going to manage that beforehand?

 

[Hamm]

No, it is Cantoris saying that (about Murphy). I am saying you cannot know, and any claim 'to know what the ground will be like' is nonsense and generalising of the highest order.

 

[Cantoris]

Macaire's involvement tailed-off dramatically after Jair Du Cochet's demise, but as Grey has said, there was a period when he regularly brought horses over - and they were usually racing for a third of the prize-money they could have earned at home.

Irish Stamp seems to suggest that Macaire was using it as a shop window?

Clearly, you don't like the idea of racing in France, for whatever reason. Given you run a relatively successful syndicates yourself, I'm surprised you don't give this some consideration, given the prize-money available.

I was asked by one of the Raise The Beat owners how much it would cost to go to Cheltenham as it can be a costly trip if he doesn't pick up prizemoney. Most of the rest of the syndicate were happy to have a runner. I have no problem with racing in France, but you make it sound much easier than it is from a whole heap of views. Pick race, run, celebrate. Is that being obtuse again?!!

If I was a Winning Ways syndicate member, spotted this opportunity, and was told it's simply too difficult and costly to get a horse to Auteuil, I would be disappointed - especially if the alternative was to run for E6,000 at a gaff track closer to home.

I take all ideas from syndicate members on board, but if we can go down the road for €6k or take a jump into the unkown for €15k, most will stick with the first and let someone else take the gamble.

 

[Cantoris]

To get to France from Ireland: Load horsebox. Drive to ferryport. Take ferry. Drive to course when you leave ferry. Unload horsebox. Sadly, it's not that much more complicated.

Now whose being simplistic.

Do you not see the irony in you calling Elliot a marketing machine when you are similar for Colm Murphy? .

Well I've failed miserably then:lol: Only Grey and myself with Colm.

I just think that 9 graded wins in a season from 3 different horses in a stable of 45 horses is a much better return than having a 50% strike rate winning egg and spoon handicaps with horses that have stones in hand coming from other people's yards (with the exception of what he has done with Jessies Dream, Steps of Freedom, Carlito Brigante). Can someone actually tell me what graded races Elliott won this season.

Punters love Elliott as his horses keep winning. The media love him because he's a laugh. Owners love him because he goes for copious amounts of pints (he was recently away for 5 days from the yard, and it wasn't a holiday - just as well McGonagle is such a good trainer!). But he still has to prove that he can handle a bunch of top notch horses the way Dessie or Jessie or Colm can.

 

[Grasshopper]

Irish Stamp seems to suggest that Macaire was using it as a shop window?

I suspect not. Macaire loves UK jumps racing and was in it for the satisfaction of seeing his horses compete against the best. He uses French racing as his shop-window, with Bromley generally snapping up 3 and 4yo's never seen outside Auteuil or Pau.

I was asked by one of the Raise The Beat owners how much it would cost to go to Cheltenham as it can be a costly trip if he doesn't pick up prizemoney. Most of the rest of the syndicate were happy to have a runner. I have no problem with racing in France, but you make it sound much easier than it is from a whole heap of views. Pick race, run, celebrate. Is that being obtuse again?!!

It's you who is making it sound harder than it is. "Pick race, run, celebrate." This is no different from an entry in the UK or Ireland. Every run is speculative, regardless of the location.

I take all ideas from syndicate members on board, but if we can go down the road for €6k or take a jump into the unkown for €15k, most will stick with the first and let someone else take the gamble.

It's to your credit that you take views on board. Dave Parry, as you know, is also happy to take soundings from syndicate members. I'd imagine you would both run out of owners reasonably quickly if it was any different.

I suppose that's what it boils down to - whether the owner is prepared to take the gamble for twice or thrice the prize-money. I just find it strange that more aren't prepared to roll the dice.

 

[Cantoris]

Macaire loves UK jumps racing and was in it for the satisfaction of seeing his horses compete against the best. He uses French racing as his shop-window, with Bromley generally snapping up 3 and 4yo's never seen outside Auteuil or Pau.

So there is no rational reason then for Macaire to be coming over other than his own personal satisfaction? Presumably not the case if you have a top notch horse and are coming over for the big races. But the smaller races seem to be for the satisfaction of doing it rather than the prestige of the race or prizemoney. It reminds me of Wilson who kept running his horses in the Champion Chase and Gold Cup. Gave him satisfaction but made very little sense otherwise.

What I'm trying to say is that you used the Macaire example as one where it works from France to UK but he is coming, apparently, for different reasons than we would be going to France (which is to win prizemoney, full stop).

I suppose that's what it boils down to - whether the owner is prepared to take the gamble for twice or thrice the prize-money. I just find it strange that more aren't prepared to roll the dice.

Which kinda sums up my point above re Macaire. It's fine for you or anyone else to suggest an owner should "roll the dice", but when it's coming out of your own pocket then it could be different. Most small owners want to keep costs to the minimum, believing they took the gamble when they bought the horse.

Interestingly, do you honestly believe that if you found the perfect opportunity for Only The Best in a €15k race in France, that Ferdy would be putting him on the boat?

 

[Grasshopper]

So there is no rational reason then for Macaire to be coming over other than his own personal satisfaction? Presumably not the case if you have a top notch horse and are coming over for the big races. But the smaller races seem to be for the satisfaction of doing it rather than the prestige of the race or prizemoney. It reminds me of Wilson who kept running his horses in the Champion Chase and Gold Cup. Gave him satisfaction but made very little sense otherwise.

This is nonsense, Cantoris. You said Macaire used UK racing as a shop-window, whereas he didn't sell-on any of his horses who ran over here. Not Jair Du Cochet or any of the others. The vast, vast majority of his sales are juveniles raced exclusively in France. Comparing his ventures into the top-end of UK racing with Fergus Wilson's quixotic entries in Championship races, is a bit of an insult to the trainer and some of the horse he has brought over here.

What I'm trying to say is that you used the Macaire example as one where it works from France to UK but he is coming, apparently, for different reasons than we would be going to France (which is to win prizemoney, full stop).

I never said his motivations were the same; only that the logistical challenges he faced were the same.

Which kinda sums up my point above re Macaire.

I don't believe it does at all.

It's fine for you or anyone else to suggest an owner should "roll the dice", but when it's coming out of your own pocket then it could be different. Most small owners want to keep costs to the minimum, believing they took the gamble when they bought the horse.

Possibly true. I'm not suggesting horses based over here forsake a 'traditional' campaign in favour of an exclusively French one. What I am siuggesting is that it is self-evidently not impossible to train a horse to start or finish it's season in France - where the programme presents attractive opportunities both in terms of the ground, and the available prize-money.

Interestingly, do you honestly believe that if you found the perfect opportunity for Only The Best in a €15k race in France, that Ferdy would be putting him on the boat?

No, I don't, but I fail to see the relevance anyway. In fact, you rather make my point for me. It's the fact that these French opportunities go completely unconsidered by practically every trainer in the British Isles that is the issue, imo.

Let me put it this way. I'd rather fork-out to go to Auteuil to see Only The Best tail-off in a twenty-grand race, than spend less and watch him tail-off in a six-grand race at Hexham.

 

[krizon]

Fabulous thread - please don't let it slip into personal nasties, as it's really very enlightening and energetic. I'd hate to see it locked!

Re Gordon Elliott: superb double today, but I do have one request which I'll put to ATR - could we please have subtitles when he speaks? Idon'tthinkI'veheardanyonerattleoffhisrepliessofastbeforeorevenquitesoquietly!

 

[chroniclandlord]

Punters love Elliott as his horses keep winning. The media love him because he's a laugh. Owners love him because he goes for copious amounts of pints (he was recently away for 5 days from the yard, and it wasn't a holiday - just as well McGonagle is such a good trainer!). But he still has to prove that he can handle a bunch of top notch horses the way Dessie or Jessie or Colm can.

With Jessie's Dream, Carlito Brigante, Chicargo Grey and Russian War among others, the quality of his string is improving.

 

[CP]

Correct chroniclandlord, and the likes of David Johnson has sent another batch of stores his way not to mention leading owner Barry Connell sending him the sales topper Mount Benbulben. Pat Sloan has sent him a horse from Noel Meade so some good quality owners clearly think he is better than a farmer of low grade races across the water.

He's saddled 4 graded winners this season afaik and has achieved a lot more than the likes of Colm Murphy had after only 5 years of training.

People said the same about Tim Vaughan that he could only train rubbish and in the past month has saddled 2 Grade 1 winners and a Scottish National winner when given the right quality of animal.

It's a young man's game nowadays and the likes of Elliott and Vaughan are only going to get better horses and as a consequence win bigger races.

 

[Cantoris]

I'd rather fork-out to go to Auteuil to see Only The Best tail-off in a twenty-grand race, than spend less and watch him tail-off in a six-grand race at Hexham.

You'd hardly have to fork out, it's an all-in fee

 

[Cantoris]

so some good quality owners clearly think he is better than a farmer of low grade races across the water.

You have missed my point completely. I have no doubt he will train more than just low grade races across the water. I acknowledged early on what he has acheived with Jessies Dream, Carlito Brigante and Steps of Freedom. But his perceived position in Irish racing (second only to Willie Mullins according to Luke) is where I have the issue. Plenty of trainers have achieved a lot more than Elliott this season. Just look at Harrington and Bostons Angel and Oscars Well. Already more grade 1s than Gordon. But she hasn't the same high media profile as Elliott, barring the Pathfork piece. Like Vaughan, he should have to earn his stripes at the top table, while being respected as being well on his way to doing so. Vaughan is on the same road. It is not being disrespectful to Elliott, but it is being disrespectful to those that have acheived more than him.

He's saddled 4 graded winners this season afaik and has achieved a lot more than the likes of Colm Murphy had after only 5 years of training. .

After two years in training, Colm had five horses in his yard. After two years in training Gordon had thirty. Why? Silver Birch. Now if you take Colm's Silver Birch catapult moment as being Feb 2004 (when Brave Inca won the Deloitte), he had trained two individual Grade 1 winners within two years. Big TV winners are the catapult every young trainer needs.

 

[cjboy]

Ferdy sent French Holly over to win Prix La Barka some years ago, and may well be running Poker de Sivola in the french gold cup this year, I hear

 

[Grasshopper]

You'd hardly have to fork out, it's an all-in fee

"Fork out" as in my own travelling expenses, Oran.

Hexham is about a four-hour journey for me - Auteuil about a five-hour journey. It might cost more to get to the latter venue, but if I had the choice of where to race, it's an absolute no-brainer.

 

[Cantoris]

Hexham is about a four-hour journey for me - Auteuil about a five-hour journey. It might cost more to get to the latter venue, but if I had the choice of where to race, it's an absolute no-brainer.

I quite like the O&T in Hexham, the dodgy coffee and lack of a stand. What more could you want??