Rest Of Leopardstown

EC1 said:
best be looking forward at the hurdles rather than looking around for dangers..i would imagine its easy to unbalance a horse by shifting position...why look round anyway..poor judgement imo..we all make mistakes though
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Looking behind him (a considerable way from the hurdle) had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the horse or his balance.

I would have thought the reasoning for looking behind him would be obvious enough.
 
Galileo said:
How many times have we seen top jockeys ask their horse for a big one at the last when it was not needed? Loads of times....and they all don't have a Mr before their name on the racecard.

Incidentally Patrick Mullins was remarkably lucky not to be seriously hurt by the horse that followed him through. Absolutely ploughed through him.
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Absolutely. Doesn't really sit well with me at all - even moreso if it's a novice who's not a particularly nimble hurdler at this stage of his career.

Good to see him win the bumper though.
 
Cantoris said:
I recall Carberry staying on Dorans Pride after a mistake in Leopardstown when most other jocks would have come off. A professional would certainly have had a better chance of staying on, simply because they go through it more often. Cousin Vinny nearly went at the first by overjumping and Patrick wasn't much help. It was unfortunate but you have ot think a professional would have been more likely to stay on and the stumble wasn't that bad.

FPTP is proving frustrating. They don't know whether to send him on or hold him up. Geraghty is a bit lost on him and he looks distance less at the moment. Gutsy performance from Cooldine.

Had spotted Alexander S in running to the last and thought his jock was far too easy on him. I'd be disappopinted with the ride and def think there is a plan with him. Maybe the Fred Winter.

And finally, Pandorama is going to need three miles over fences. As I mentioned previously, he is flat out all the way in his races. It's a good one pace, but still one pace and he will need to step up in trip to show his best over fences.
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I was at the Monaghan game but watched the racing when i got in, and having missed him running,spotted him out the back turning in, thought, "OH BOLL*X" only to see him, "tenderly" ridden the whole way up the straight. Needs to be produced late,but the horse was about 12th comin to the last, and full of running. I imagine the jock didnt think they would stop as much in front, and he nearly accidentily won the race. Definately a plan for him.

Cooldine, good enough performance,i wasnt blown away, Paddy is very one paced i feel. Will be hard to win races with,liable to set them up if he goes on, cant really come from behind.

Neptunes jumped brilliantly, depending on how you rate Notre Peres run, id be happy enough with that race. Happy with my bet on him.

Any word on Zaarito Cantoris?
 
I agree with Galileo

Not only did he look round ages before the hurdle, he did not unbalance the horse. Good on him for looking round, he's not watching it on ATR. He could then concentrate on the upcoming hurdle knowing he had only Pandorama to beat. The asking of the horse to jump was well executed and he was not even asking for a "big jump" merely continuing the momentum and encouraging in a 1-2-3 of the last three strides to the hurdle, all in no way untoward. The horse jumped perfectly, certainly in mid air i would ask did anyone think the horse was about to stumble the stride after? No.

Hell, if the lad had sat still and the horse had chipped a fourth stride in, and mullered the hurdle there would be grizzling all over the place.

Sometimes the 'big jump' you think is being asked for is not what it seems, its more of a keeping up the momentum rather than allowing the horse to steady in and go all clumsy and unfocused at the obstacle.
 
I'm crying into my pillow after my rather large trixie, lucky 15, was derailed by the fall. Lucky Mullins wasn't badly injured by that horse that hit him maybe he should have been having a look behind them.
After saying in another thread CV looked a bad priced antepost fave after watching him today I think he could be very very difficult to beat in the ballymore travelled like a machine today. Hopefully losses will be recouped
 
uncle goober said:
Sometimes the 'big jump' you think is being asked for is not what it seems, its more of a keeping up the momentum rather than allowing the horse to steady in and go all clumsy and unfocused at the obstacle.
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That's true, and he didn't fire the horse into the hurdle or anything like that. That said, he certainly wasn't in danger of losing momentum by any means (the horse was absolutely swinging on the bridle coming to the last) and had he jumped the last like he did the second last, he would have sprinted away and won by 5 lengths+.
 
Hurricane Fly injured, Cousin Vinny can't land and Mullin's bumper horses all look much of a muchness. I fear for the Irish at Cheltenham.
 
del boy said:
Any word on Zaarito Cantoris?
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He was ready to run last weekend but he doesn't take much work and was just over the top when it was delayed the week. I'd say it is doubtful he will run before cheltenham but think he will be entered for grade 2 next weekend.
 
Cantoris said:
He was ready to run last weekend but he doesn't take much work and was just over the top when it was delayed the week. I'd say it is doubtful he will run before cheltenham but think he will be entered for grade 2 next weekend.
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Cheers sir. Ideally id imagine they would like him to have another run prior to Cheltenham. I had a small wager last week on him,so not all lost so, was worried when he didnt show today.

Had a few wagers when i got home from Leop the day Inca won, Neptunes, Cooldine, and Zaarito. Happy enough with them so far.
 
I've seen at least two people (one being SteveM I believe) stating that The Listener seems to have gone downhill (or similar sentiments) since he 'changed trainer'. Now, strictly speaking and according to paperwork, he may have changed trainer but in reality he hasn't. The Listener is now trained by Nick Mitchell, who trained him at the Alners when he was in situ there as assistant, before he acquired his licence. That is why the owner moved him from the Alners', he wanted to keep the continuity of Nick riding and training him, as he knew the horse so well and had done so well with him.
 
Shadow Leader said:
I've seen at least two people (one being SteveM I believe) stating that The Listener seems to have gone downhill (or similar sentiments) since he 'changed trainer'. Now, strictly speaking and according to paperwork, he may have changed trainer but in reality he hasn't. The Listener is now trained by Nick Mitchell, who trained him at the Alners when he was in situ there as assistant, before he acquired his licence. That is why the owner moved him from the Alners', he wanted to keep the continuity of Nick riding and training him, as he knew the horse so well and had done so well with him.
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While Mitchell might well have been actually training him last year, he was still in his familar surroundings of the yard, same gallops, routine etc. Looks a shadow of his former self now.
 
I'm not doubting that he's a shadow of himself now, but in hinting at blaming the change of trainer is a little misleading really. I take your point about the surroundings but he's not moved miles away and literally the change in surroundings shouldn't result in him going downhill really.
 
uncle goober said:
Wouldnt be surprised if he ever got problems on that leg, looking at his action.
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Its pretty horrific alright.

Someone said he would need soft ground at Cheltenham, connections would think otherwise and indeed his most impressive performance to date came at Punchestown when he blitzed his field on a decent surface.
 
Galileo said:
Looking behind him (a considerable way from the hurdle) had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the horse or his balance.

I would have thought the reasoning for looking behind him would be obvious enough.
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was it really a considerable way away??...watching it live I associated the fall with the looking round...looked like a Carberry gone wrong ride to me

you can't really say it "had no bearing whatsover"..because you don't really know...you can summize it may have had nowt to do with it..whereas I would summise it was related to the fall

he could have looked round well before he did actually
 
EC1 said:
you can't really say it "had no bearing whatsover"..because you don't really know...you can summize it may have had nowt to do with it..whereas I would summise it was related to the fall
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I am basing it on the evidence. The horse was clearly balanced going into the hurdle given the he jumped it cleanly as well. He lost stumbled after the hurdle. If the look around lead to him getting unbalanced it would have surely meant a bad jump or poor preparation.

The horse was unbalanced/stumbled after the hurdle....he was perfect before it hence the fine jump. If he was unbalanced going into the hurdle he would not have jumped it so well/cleanly.
 
Not sure what the looking around had to do with it EC1. I didn't think the horse was presented at the flight ideally, but that had nothing to do with it. Anyway, I've already given my take on it. All about opinions.
 
CV's backside went one way and his legs the other - he slipped as much as (or as well as) stumbled. Wet grass is very slippery.

I take Cantoris's and others' point that very experienced jockeys would have had *more chance* of staying on, but that's not to say they would have. The reason so many falls and esp 'unseatings' happen at the end of races is not just because the horse is tired, it's also because the extra speed at that point increases velocity so the forces at work from a physics p.o.v are that much harder to control

As for firing the horse at the last - AP did exactly that on the Henderson horse at Plumpton with disastrous consequences when trying to get his 3000th the other day - not for the first time (and quite a few of his have been fatal - more when he was at Pipe's than recently I should add). Yet I don't remember a lot of criticism of AP last week LOL!

UG's very informative explanation of why jockeys so often do this is an example of what I meant earlier, by people who ride often seeing things very differently from people who punt but have never ridden, btw.

Re the Listener, I was the other person besides Steve who suggested that the change of regime has done nothing for the horse. Whilst I can believe that Nick G had a great deal of input into the horse's training, esp in riding him, I've no doubt that whilst still at Alner's he remained subject to the yard's normal routine as regards excercise, feed and all those other things which go into training, and I would be very surprised if Sally Alner had allowed any change after RA's accident. It's extremely likely that Nick G has his own way of doing things now he can do it as he chooses - every rookie trianer does! - and in that sense I don't accept he 'has the same trainer' in any meaningful sense of the term. Changes in feed regimes especially can make a huge difference to a horse's performance.

That's not to knock Nick G - as I've said before he is in a very unenviable position as regards having such a high profile horse in his first season, who may be under-performing for purely psychological reasons - ie 'missing home'! Horses do get stressed and depressed.
 
So far as I was aware, Nick Mitchell pretty much did everything for the horse whilst he was there - he even travelled him to Ireland every time he went so the horse could have the continuity of care.

I really do think it is unfair to blame Nick Mitchell for the horse's below par form this season, after all he knows the horse better than anyone else and that is the sole reason he went with him when he took out his licence; to ensure continuity of care, not change it!

Also, when Robert Alner had his accident, I believe it was pretty much Nick who held the yard together and was effectively training the horses hinself for a long time anyway? I wouldn't underestimate the amount of input staff have into a training regime; in fact more times than you'd think the staff would be a lot more responsible for training the horses than the licensed trainer.

Also in a fall, it's more the effects of gravity and momentum which have most to do with it rather then kinetic energy; a rider isn't an inanimate object and so to some extent can control their movement.
 
Shadow Leader said:
Also in a fall, it's more the effects of gravity and momentum which have most to do with it rather then kinetic energy; a rider isn't an inanimate object and so to some extent can control their movement.
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Ah, sure it's all Newton, one way or another. I'm rowing in with momentum and inertia as the key words, and I was top of my physics O-Level class, so clearly I win this one ;)
 
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