Road To The 2014 QM Champion Chase

  • Thread starter Thread starter SlimChance
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SteveM said:
We can only speculate as to what went wrong and there doesn’t seem much mileage in that, as we’ll probably never know. But the irregularity self-corrected and apparently is not ongoing. 101 things can prompt what may be termed an ‘irregular heartbeat’. What does seem clear is that there is nothing wrong with him now, that he is not suffering from (and is not being treated for) any heart-related condition, and that the yard will take every precaution to see that nothing triggers a recurrence of the ‘irregularity’. Consequently there is no big question mark about him.
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I am asking you to speculate about what went wrong.

I'm no fan of Henderson but it's pretty outlandish to suggest he's been "messing about with" the horse of a lifetime.

Could you clarify what you mean by "messed about with"?
 
Bar the Bull said:
Why do you think it is most likely that Sprinter Sacre has been messed around with?

Do you disagree with the assessment of the racecourse vets and the subsequent assessment of the equine cardiologist the following day that he had an irregular heartbeat?

Do you stand by your belief that Henderson took Sprinter Sacre home rather than have him drugs tested in order to give a few more hours for substances to leave his system?
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I will be lumping on SS. I dont think he was "got at" but I do think he wasnt 100% and Baz just decided "its not right. pull him" The heart beat thing is horse shiote. There is no Santa and there is no Jesus, but it was a miracle that his heart fixed itself! Excuses excuses from a well paid vet. Mortgage the hoose and slam it on SS.
 
Bar the Bull said:
I find Steve's posts on Sprinter Sacre very hard to fathom.

In addition to answering Benny's point, would you mind answering my questions above, Steve.
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I would, but I don’t know what you want me to say other than what I have said.

If any trainer had any cause whatsoever to believe that a substance could show up (for legitimate reasons or otherwise) he would delay the testing if he could (this doesn’t mean that Henderson did this for this reason). My point is Henderson should not have had the option to delay (they should be routinely tested under such circumstances and this sometimes happens and sometimes not). Even afterwards, after being sent to Newmarket, it’s not clear to me that he was tested for anything other than his heart.

They ran tests on his heart which showed an irregularity that subsequently self corrected. If he has no ongoing heart condition something triggered the irregularity. The link to some of the things (not exhaustive) that can trigger such irregularity has already been made.

The horse may have been got at. It may be as a result of something he was being treated for legitimately, it may be something else. We just don’t know.

And yet none of this was what I was saying anyway... I was replying to Slim’s assertion that there is a ‘massive question mark over him’. I’m saying I don’t think there is... Hope this is clear enough.
 
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Bar the Bull said:
Henderson didn't delay any testing. He was routine tested after the race.
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What was it he was tested for after the race? As far as I understand it he was asked to send the horse to Newmarket for testing, but rather than do that he took him home against instruction. All that happened at the track, as far as I can see, was that the vets onsite listened to his heart and thought it sounded irregular.
 
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That is incorrect, Steve. He was dope tested after the race. Urine was taken from the horse.

The "testing in Newmarket" that you have repeatedly referred to was heart testing. It was originally reported on the 27th December that he was going straight to Newmarket to have his hear tested. Henderson (possibly in conjunction with equine cardiologist Celia Marr) decided later that afternoon to delay the heart test until the morning of the 28th.

There was never going to be a dope test in Newmarket. Testing is (correctly) done on course immediately after a race. Once the stewards order a horse to be routine tested, they don't leave the course until they provide a sample. This procedure was followed to the letter on the 27th December with Sprinter Sacre.

You have spread repeated innuendo about the horse and the events of the 27th, and from what I can see, you are basing your innuendo on misinterpretation of events at the time. Maybe you know more, but it is very difficult to see where you're coming from. Which is why I asked the questions.
 
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Thanks for that. If he was urine tested at the track that's the only confirmation I've heard. I'd be grateful for the source, as the BHA would not confirm this. Neither have the results been made public as far as I'm aware.
 
Source is the BHA website. He was routine tested. This means urine typically (although it can mean blood test, although that is normally if a horse cannot pass urine).

The tests are not released yet. They typically only release positive results.

No testing in Newmarket, though.
 
Bar the Bull said:
Source is the BHA website. He was routine tested. This means urine typically (although it can mean blood test, although that is normally if a horse cannot pass urine).

The tests are not released yet. They typically only release positive results.

No testing in Newmarket, though.
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All I could get from the BHA (a few days ago) was that raceday testing was random rather than routine and it would not confirm whether he had actually been tested (although I now understand he was ordered to be tested). These are latest figures (2013 not yet available) that the BHA was prepared to divulge.

Raceday testing
2012
Number of runners – 90,174
Number of post-race samples – 7,182
Number of positives – 14
Positives as a percentage of runners – 0.19%
The BHA has now completed a review of its anti-doping and Medication Control Policy. As a result of the Review, BHA will increase the spend and resources to this area, while the policy will be amended to deliver the following:
• Testing-in-training samples to double
• Post-race testing samples to increase by 20%
• An increased investment in research.

As far as the charges of ‘misrepresentation’ and ‘innuendo’ that you have levelled at me I don’t see how they are applicable, as I’m inquiring into what happened and have said that we (or at least I) don’t know what took place and that there ought to be disclosurer on this. If by ‘innuendo’ you mean making a list of possibilities as to what went wrong for investigation then that is not my understanding of the word.
 
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You said there was nothing wrong with the horse. Despite the fact that two independent professionals have stated he had an irregular heart beat.
You suggested that Henderson was avoiding attending a drug test on time.
You suggested that Sprinter Sacre was to be sent to Newmarket for a drugs test.
You have suggested that Sprinter Sacre may have been treated for an ailment and that there was an illegal drug in his system which Henderson wanted to give time to clear.
 
Steve,

I have to agree with Bar here - all the way through the other thread, your posts are littered with phrases emphasised in quotes which are insinuating that the horse was doped up - along with numerous references to the fact that Henderson took the horse home rather than submitted him for dope testing (which now appears incorrect).

It would seem closer to innuendo than simply "a list of possibilities" - certainly no doubt left as to which possibility you deem most likely, anyway :)
 
Flagship uberalles said:
Steve,

I have to agree with Bar here - all the way through the other thread, your posts are littered with phrases emphasised in quotes which are insinuating that the horse was doped up - along with numerous references to the fact that Henderson took the horse home rather than submitted him for dope testing (which now appears incorrect).

It would seem closer to innuendo than simply "a list of possibilities" - certainly no doubt left as to which possibility you deem most likely, anyway :)
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Yes I think something triggered the irregularity if that's what you mean. As I've repeatedly said I don't know whether he was got at, or whether it was something he was being legitimately treated for, or something else. What does seem clear is that as he has no ongoing problem it didn't just happen and was triggered by something. I'm after a degree of disclosure.
 
Bar the Bull said:
You said there was nothing wrong with the horse. Despite the fact that two independent professionals have stated he had an irregular heart beat.
You suggested that Henderson was avoiding attending a drug test on time.
You suggested that Sprinter Sacre was to be sent to Newmarket for a drugs test.
You have suggested that Sprinter Sacre may have been treated for an ailment and that there was an illegal drug in his system which Henderson wanted to give time to clear.
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1) I said the horse had no ongoing problem as the irregularity ‘self corrected’. Not that the vets didn’t diagnose an irregularity at the time. Indeed, as the horse has no ongoing problem the irregularity must have been triggered by something else.
2) I suggested that Henderson shouldn’t have been given the option to avoid testing (but apparently the BHA website now says that the horse was in fact ordered to be tested oncourse, although it would not confirm to me that he had in fact been tested, or what for, or if the results would be made public).
3) I asked what tests SS had been sent to Newmarket for. I understood he had gone for heart screening but was asking if he was to be tested for anything else.
4) SS may have been treated for something legitimate that could have triggered it. Henderson may not think the public have a right to that info (and if a legitimate treatment he’d be right).
 
Digger said:
I will be lumping on SS. I dont think he was "got at" but I do think he wasnt 100% and Baz just decided "its not right. pull him" The heart beat thing is horse shiote.
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That is my thinking on it exactly.

Although nothing would surprise me anymore.
 
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Absolute minefield if SS doesn't turn up. SDG would be a lay for me. Not convinced by him around there. I do think the Irish pair that beat Arvika could go well. Hidden Cyclone ran well in the paddy power until emptying, though not sure he's the speed to win at 2m. Confusing this race.
Oh no its not - SS returns and wins by a Fence.
 
Sir de Grugy very impressive in thrashing Hidden Cyclone there even with Somersby unseating .I am still very much afeard that Cheltenham is not his track- his two disappointing runs both being there if that is simply a coincidence in the absence of a fit and well Sprinter Sacre he would be the most likely winner.
 
SlimChance said:
Kid Cassidy winning today is excellent news for the e/w sewer rats. We now have until the Tingle Creek to put this 2nd or 3rd Queen Mother beast (Sire De Grugy) in e/w multis at an artificially inflated price before he gets kicked around the place my Sprinter Sacre in the Tingle Creek and Gods know maybe bigger after! The time to bet like a scumbag is now!

Is the Queen Mother it's aim? Yes
Is it good enough to place? Yes
Is it a 4/1 shot to place in the QM? No
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That lad is a genius.
 
Ardross said:
Sir de Grugy very impressive in thrashing Hidden Cyclone there even with Somersby unseating .I am still very much afeard that Cheltenham is not his track- his two disappointing runs both being there if that is simply a coincidence in the absence of a fit and well Sprinter Sacre he would be the most likely winner.
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He might be like Flagship Uberalles in that he'll win the race by default despite conditions being against him.
 
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