Road to the Champion Chase 2011

Maybe so to some extent, but neither travelled or jumped as well as MM on his good daysat and its hard to envisage either taking a champion chase in quite the same style as MM did that time
 
Agree that Master Minded is a joy to watch jumping when he's on-song, clivex, but his very best form leaves him short of both Azertyuiop and Well Chief, let alone Moscow Flyer.
 
If you want to compare the two I'd be in the Moscow Flyer camp, but it has to be said that Master Minded has run to a couple of exceptional ratings even higher than Moscow.
 
SteveM said:
If you want to compare the two I'd be in the Moscow Flyer camp, but it has to be said that Master Minded has run to a couple of exceptional ratings even higher than Moscow.
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Master Minded has never, imo, run to a higher rating than Moscow Flyer's best.
 
This is something of a vexed debate...obviously I'm in the Moscow camp but, in many respects, it's impossible to judge for a very simple reason. Moscow only ever really did as much as he had to [bar that one time at Aintree]...whereas Master Minded won his first Champion by a remarkable distance which naturally meant his rating was inflated. Moscow was as likely to beat Rathgar Beau by two lengths as he was Azertyuiop...but if Azertyuiop or Well Chief was putting it up to him, the likes of Rathgar Beau etc would be further behind. That's what the debate revolves around - I don't think there is ever going to be agreement on it.
 
whereas Master Minded won his first Champion by a remarkable distance which naturally meant his rating was inflated
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Why inflated? Thats the wrong word surely. And it wasnt as if he was pushed out to make that distance. But valid point re MF

Bar the bulls summary is a good one...
 
Grasshopper said:
Master Minded has never, imo, run to a higher rating than Moscow Flyer's best.
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On RPRs best five runs averaged. Moscow Flyer (from 28 chase races) shades Master Minded (from 18 chase races) on 179 vs 178.4. But Master Minded recorded a best rating of 186 (in beating VPU at Cheltenham), whereas Moscow Flyer’s best was a 182 (in beating Well Chief at Cheltenham).

This clearly shows them to both be very high calibre. If you put a gun to my head I’d pick Moscow Flyer, but Master Minded has so far run 10 chase races less than Moscow... so the jury’s still out.
 
I think BTB's assessment is extremely good. Two fantastic horses. Imo the performance by MM at Cheltenham was the most amazing I've ever seen over the jumps.
 
SteveM said:
On RPRs best five runs averaged. Moscow Flyer (from 28 chase races) shades Master Minded (from 18 chase races) on 179 vs 178.4. But Master Minded recorded a best rating of 186 (in beating VPU at Cheltenham), whereas Moscow Flyer’s best was a 182 (in beating Well Chief at Cheltenham).

This clearly shows them to both be very high calibre. If you put a gun to my head I’d pick Moscow Flyer, but Master Minded has so far run 10 chase races less than Moscow... so the jury’s still out.
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Steve, all this does is show RPR's for the bollocks they are. This is the same crowd who tried to prop-up their inflated rating for Master Minded by awarding Mahogany Blaze 160 for the Connaught Chase a little over a year ago.

Listen, I'm not having a dash at Master Minded. He is self evidently a superlative 2m chaser - right up there in the very top bracket. But the very best of his form would, imo, have seen him scrapping for third with Well Chief in the 2004 Tingle Creek.
 
But how on earth can you come to that con conclusion? Thats what baffles me. The way he skipped round Cheltenham that day would put him behind Azerty? Come off it

No one at Nichols would believe that
 
SteveM said:
On RPRs best five runs averaged. Moscow Flyer (from 28 chase races) shades Master Minded (from 18 chase races) on 179 vs 178.4. But Master Minded recorded a best rating of 186 (in beating VPU at Cheltenham), whereas Moscow Flyer’s best was a 182 (in beating Well Chief at Cheltenham).

This clearly shows them to both be very high calibre. If you put a gun to my head I’d pick Moscow Flyer, but Master Minded has so far run 10 chase races less than Moscow... so the jury’s still out.
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clivex said:
But how on earth can you come to that con conclusion? Thats what baffles me. The way he skipped round Cheltenham that day would put him behind Azerty? Come off it
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I'd be quite satisfied that Azertyuiop could put around 19L of dYlight between himself and VPU, on the best of his form.

No one at Nichols would believe that[/QUOTE]
 
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Yes, in fairness you are much closer to understanding the horses ability than Ruby or Nichols could ever be
 
Why not?

Why would they need to lie about the differing abilities of horses from different generations?

Why would they need to lie at all?

Some people live on bullshit (on these forums too...) but not these two
 
It's not about lying though, is it - it's about judgement. Jockeys and trainers are in no better position to judge absolute merit than those who observe from home. They can tell you which horse excites them most, or works more impressively, but why would Paul Nicholls be a better person to judge the merit of Master Minded's first Champion Chase win, in form terms, than anyone else?
 
and how can anyone give a convincing form line that proves that MM would finish behind WC and Azerty at his best? Complete guesswork and extremely unlikely IMO

Would much rather take the connections judgement of relative merits
 
Grasshopper said:
Steve, all this does is show RPR's for the bollocks they are. This is the same crowd who tried to prop-up their inflated rating for Master Minded by awarding Mahogany Blaze 160 for the Connaught Chase a little over a year ago.

Listen, I'm not having a dash at Master Minded. He is self evidently a superlative 2m chaser - right up there in the very top bracket. But the very best of his form would, imo, have seen him scrapping for third with Well Chief in the 2004 Tingle Creek.
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I'm actually on your side. But only to an extent. They are both clearly extraordinarily good chasers. I've used the RPRs because they are to hand for all of the races, but I expect it is pretty much the same story whatever set of ratings you use - i.e. that they are both top draw and comparable.
 
Must admit that my initial post was deliberately provocative in the sense that I knew it would provoke a good discussion.

In reality the whole thing is subjective; Moscow Flyer only ever did enough and Master Minded wasn't faced with the calibre of two mile opposition that would enable him to better Moscow Flyer in form terms very easily, if at all (let's face it, Grassy and granger would want him to have beaten Voy Por Ustedes at least two and a half miles in the Champion to admit that form is within an arses roar of that Tingle Creek).

But these debates are good fun on a winters day.
 
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