Road to the Epsom Derby 2011

right - so he isn't riding at all..that makes sense then now..if they had put him on board it would have been ridiculous.

i don't understand why Fallon signed so early to commit himself to a horse in a race like the Derby where things can change very quickly

its a very sorry episode all round..like i said..if i owned it i would have just put another jockey up and never booked Fallon again
 
LUKE said:
How does this fit in with your admiration of Lester Piggot.Serious question.
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This isn't directed at me but I thought I'd have a go. Lester just wanted to ride winners all the time and I think he'd have gotten off NK for the favourite only in this. Fallon's move is just political bullshit.
 
EC1 said:
right - so he isn't riding at all..that makes sense then now..if they had put him on board it would have been ridiculous.

i don't understand why Fallon signed so early to commit himself to a horse in a race like the Derby where things can change very quickly

its a very sorry episode all round..like i said..if i owned it i would have just put another jockey up and never booked Fallon again
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He didn't commit himself to a particular horse, but to a particular owner.

From my (admittedly limited) understanding of the whole situation there is a lot more to this than a simple breach of contract by Fallon which the Turkish owners may have been prepared to overlook were it not for the other indiscretions/slights.
 
Euronymous said:
This isn't directed at me but I thought I'd have a go. Lester just wanted to ride winners all the time and I think he'd have gotten off NK for the favourite only in this. Fallon's move is just political bullshit.
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unless Recital wins...will you change your mind about it if that happens?

it may look like politics..but it just maybe that Fallon risked all this shit because he does believe the horse is the winner

if it turns out Recital does get well beat..i'd say you are right..but only if
 
Miesque said:
He didn't commit himself to a particular horse, but to a particular owner.

From my (admittedly limited) understanding of the whole situation there is a lot more to this than a simple breach of contract by Fallon which the Turkish owners may have been prepared to overlook were it not for the other indiscretions/slights.
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so there is more it then?..i see

there always is with him isn't there? :p
 
Gamla Stan said:
Back to the race itself....

Pour Moi, Native Khan and Ocean War are the 3 for me. I'm on at 6s, 100s and 16s so bound to go wrong despite the value!

Totally agree with Euro, the front two are daft prices.
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Native Khan should be 3/1 to stay and put that in a double with the odds he wins if he does, and he should be at least 18s/20s - he's the one horse in the line up I can't see staying. Should be running tomorrow in France.
 
[FONT=&quot]Recital is the imponderable for me and while I think he is talented enough to win I’ve decided he won’t. I’ve also thrown out Carlton House... everything is right about him, I just don't really rate him that highly I suppose.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I’ve already backed Native Khan (who I'm thinking has a big chance). I’ve added to my position in Pour Moi (I believe the likeliest to win when all's said and done), going in hard on the 13/2 about him with Coral this morning and I’ve also had a modest cover on Seville at the same price (who I've decided will turn round Dante form with CH at the trip).[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]That’s me done. Good luck everyone... sit back and enjoy![/FONT]

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I've also taken the 4/1 on Roderic O'Connor in the French Derby tomorrow. I'm quite sweet on him for that.
 
Good luck Steve

I'll recite the winner to you later ;)

The ground is a little quicker today looking at the first race time..I make it about 10lbs faster than middle Good..which would be Good turning Good to Firm in racing speak;)
 
EC1 said:
Good luck Steve

I'll recite the winner to you later ;)

The ground is a little quicker today looking at the first race time..I make it about 10lbs faster than middle Good..which would be Good turning Good to Firm in racing speak;)
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The going will play into the hooves of Native Khan. I can't see him being out of the frame and he just might win.
 
I'm trying to think of the last craven winner to win a Derby?

He also hung in the craven..is fast ground really ideal?

he didn't really hammer Measuring Time on it when expected to either..with a 20/1 shot just a little behind that one.

i'd be surprised if fast ground is ideal on what little evidence we have

couldn't fancy NK with any confidence.
 
Hamm said:
Native Khan should be 3/1 to stay and put that in a double with the odds he wins if he does, and he should be at least 18s/20s - he's the one horse in the line up I can't see staying. Should be running tomorrow in France.
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[FONT=&quot]Actually Native Khan has done really well to be so effective at a mile so far this season. He definitely wants 10 furlongs and should be fine at 12 furlongs.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The Dosage system is of no help to us with him as he has insufficient points (just 8) for an accurate reading. But a low point score is no reflection of ability.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]His sire Azamour has an average winning distance for his progeny of 10.4 furlongs and his dam sire Kendor has an AWD for his progeny of 12 furlongs. This is all you would want to see in a pedigree to be pretty confident of the individual getting the trip in the Derby.[/FONT]
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Pedigree analysis is great but racecourse evidence mich better - he looks all over a miler to me.
 
Hamm said:
Pedigree analysis is great but racecourse evidence mich better - he looks all over a miler to me.
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But on racecourse evidence surely you can see he is screaming out for middle distances.

Dragged along by Frankel in the Guineas, he would have been runner-up rather than third in a matter of strides and was the one reducing the distance between him and the winner at the death.
 
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SteveM said:
But on racecourse evidence surely you can see he is screaming out for middle distances.

Dragged along by Frankel in the Guineas, he would have been runner-up rather than third in a matter of strides and was the one reducing the distance between him and the winner at the death.
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Not how I saw it - he was the only horse who lay (somewhat) up with the pace - a 1m4 horse could in no way do this - he would be massively outpaced.
 
LUKE said:
How does this fit in with your admiration of Lester Piggot.Serious question.
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The difference is clear I think in that Fallon entered into a written contract to ride the horse - who knows until the judgment is released exactly what its terms were but they might have included some cash up front .

Piggott tended to be more careful by all accounts in raising the possibility that he might ride a horse but keeping his options open for example before the 1983 Derby he arranged to ride both Teenoso and Tolomeo in workouts and chose the former .

Of course , Lester's " keeping his options open " backfired on him from time to time most notably with the All Along ride ( allegedly due to a telephone call in which I will ride if Awaasif does not run was interpreted by Biancone as he would ride the horse - which not only saw that horse win the Arc and a string of US Grade 1 races and I think the Japan Cup but ended his relationship with Cecil prematurely due to Wildenstein refusing to let him ride his horses with Cecil - losing him no fewer than 4 classic wins in 1985 .

The fundamental difference in this case is the nature and terms of the contract between Araci and Fallon - jockeys would be well advised to get their expensive lawyers to check such documents !
 
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