Rotherham

It's not blown apart at all Clive, if anything the Yewtree revelations only go to underline the difficulty. A lot of the Yewtree allegations were historical. It's only now, years later (actually decades later in some cases), that there has been something of a mood shift.

Indeed, complaints had previously been raised against Jimmy Saville, Cyril Smith and Stuart Hall. These were not new names in the frame. One of the things that emerged from the Saville investigations in particular were the number of times junior police officers had attempted to act on complaints and investigate Saville but were prevented from doing so by senior officers over ruling them, and there is of course an inference that the decision not to pursue him was taken higher up the societal chain in command than a local chief constable.

Look at another angle, were they not the catholic church with all the influence they have, don't you think they'd be shut down now as a criminal organisation for the sheer volume of cases and complaints that route back there?

Try this for me (if you dare)

You are aware of rumours and stories relating personnel who might or might not have committed an offence. You've heard the stories from more than one source. Try and report some high profile DJ for instance of the 1970's tomorrow based on hearsay evidence from people who you think might know something, but who you can't be certain of. See what happens to your complaint. Will you do that for us and let us know how you get on?

Bear in mind you're only likely to get one chance at doing this, and you have to make it stick. Your evidence will need to be bloody good. It's not a Vanessa Feltz type thing where you can wait for Rolf Harris to be found guilty and then come out from the safety of a conviction and tell the Sunday Express about your harrowing experience whilst others took the chance of bringing the case with all the real stress that involves. I've heard quite a few stories relating to some current, some ex, and some dead politicians, but have I got a shred of personal evidence? No. Do I have any confidence that were I to name the people who told me (provided I could remember dates and venues, and not all of them are alive any longer anyway) that they'd back up my account? No. Even if I'd tried reporting them at the time, the people would have denied it anyway. Do I believe the stories even? On balance I probably do, but I know equally there's absolutely bugger all I can do about it

The plight of the whistle blower isn't a particularly pleasent one. In fact its a personal graveyard for folk as very few of them succeed. I've leaked stuff to the media before now on a couple of occasions when I knew the stuff being put out for public consumption to be a sack of lies, but even then you're totally dependent on them to do a job. I've told them where to dig to in order to get the bigger story, but they rarely will once they've cleared a few days worth of copy and move on instead to a 'celebrity story' (that sells)
 
The action they took against a prominent popstar wasn't part of the yewtree operation though was it?. It was South Yorkshire independent action..highlighting what complete asses they are by taking that action whilst turning a blind eye on all this.

One case i heard on Radio Sheffield..an 11 year old girl who tried to report an incident was told by a police officer that if she consented then what did she think he could do..11 year old

If they do not investigate the police in this situation there is something seriously wrong

Now its starting to cause tensions in Rotherham..people going round abusing Pakistani's..calling them paedos.

This issue is now about bringing people to book ..it will destroy a complete town if this situation isn't looked into properly...we need to find out the people who carried out the attacks and the people who protected them by ignoring it. It is an absolute disgrace if nothing is looked into here.
 
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Exactly. How on earth can this be excused?

Today it's reported that Rotherham council seized and destroyed independent files on these cases

So lets look at it this way. We will not investigate any rape allegations against Muslims and we will destroy any evidence of the same

This is in Denis mcshanes words . The guardian reading left.

The Pakistani community will be under siege there and elsewhere because they will be seen as having special privileges under the law under left wing councils. In fact this is disastrous for them and if this had been properly dealt with then "community cohesion" would be in a better place

Warbler. I just don't know what your point is.
 
The Saville case is perhaps the better illustration of how these things tend to work (or not)

A number of people remarked that he was "odd" and reported low grade activity such as things he said now or then, or perhaps slightly weird things like having a mattress in one of his cars that he said was for sleeping in. There was also a whole clutch of people who retrospectively reported having heard stories and rumours. This is the level that most people within the orgainsation would be at. Even I'd heard stories of Jimmy Saville and I've never worked for the BBC. I was led to believe there was a masonic link, but since that's never emerged in the years since, one suspects that was wrong

Now I'd expect there to be thousands of employees who've passed through Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council during this period who will have been at this level. Council officers usually drink and gossip. It's a political environment. Councillor's themselves (well some of them) aren't averse to making private allegations about each other when they've imbibed enough of the truth drug.

I can give you an example of a very high profile politician (who ironically heralds from the Rotherham area) who has been whispered about for decades (and not always whispered about that quietly either). He was also involved when Welsh Secretary for the setting up of an enquiry that pretty well cleared the Wrexham childrens home abuse scandal. Yet he hasn't been reported (so far as we know)

There must some kind of evolutionary chain at play however where you eventually start to encounter individuals who are in possession of more information than gossip and rumour. But even then it depends how that evidence is presented to them.

There is a turn over in staff, as new arrive and inherit a situation, you'd expect alarm bells to ring. It's nearly always the case that these services are delivered in 'partnership' despite one department having a 'lead responsibility'. It's always possible that even at senior levels they don't have a full picture, although what I suspect could have happened here is that some kind of orthodoxy has been stretched and become a pillar of policy that never existed, and which no one ever sought to challenge as it started to take on a life of its own - that's a description of crap management - but there was a whole raft PD appointments made during the last 15 years
 
clivex said:
Exactly. How on earth can this be excused?
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No one is trying to excuse it Clive, more or case of explaining how these things happen.

There are other things too concerning managerial culture and defensive management designed to secure the big pay cheque and and nice pension. One of the easiest (or certainly most tempting) ways of doing this is to adopt a do nothing approach. Those people who possess the authority to make things happen, also possess the greatest incentive to ensure nothing does. It's a major weakness across all the public services

There is often something of a culture that so long as it isn't in the public domain we'll get away with it. The same thing is true across all walks of politics, with MP's expenses being a rather obvious example. Once it's out of course it becomes a feeding frenzy, you need to find a few to sacrifice (when frankly it could have been 400) make all sorts of promises about cleaning things up, and then quietly reintroduce the same systems and controls that permitted it to go on in the first place
 
The report is absolutely clear why the cases were not followed up. Todays story bears that out to a greater degree

it has nothing to do with any of the above
 
The more i listen to Radio Sheffield its starting to look like this isn't a case of people turning a blind eye..its potentially looking to me like a highly organised paedo ring concerning possibly a few individuals at the top with influence keeping it hidden.

One guy who worked at a care home said that throughout the night taxi's paid for by the council would turn up and take girls away then bring them back later. One girl was gone for a week and nothing was said..wtf. There is no way you can just go and take girls from homes unless someone is covering for you.

This isn't just some bad men in the community randomly taking girls..its like the care homes were used as picking grounds...you can't do that without help from people who run these homes being involved..how do you go to a home..take a girl for a week and no one in the home reporting it and there being a nationwide search done for the girl. Why were the bills for all these taxi's not questioned..somebody was authorising payments in the council..another member of the ring?. This looks so well organised.as paedo gangs usually are...death threats to the girls issued if they said anything etc. To get to the bottom of this..you need to start at the bottom..because no one higher up will ever crack.

I might be wrong..but this just can't be random
 
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I doubt whether that accounts for more than a fraction of the cases and runs contrary to some of the statements i have seen

Its easy to assume all these crimes are organised because people love consipiracy theories and watch too many James Bond movies. Fact is that this was seedy, disorganised and pretty random
 
clivex said:
I doubt whether that accounts for more than a fraction of the cases and runs contrary to some of the statements i have seen

Its easy to assume all these crimes are organised because people love consipiracy theories and watch too many James Bond movies. Fact is that this was seedy, disorganised and pretty random
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if you have access to a number of care homes..you will soon run up 1400 cases...it wasn't just one night he was talking about..it was every night

I don't watch James Bond films..and i don't believe in or love conspiracies.and i don't think all crimes are organised....so i'm not really the simple minded moron you seem to be suggesting there:)...what i do know is that i'd rather believe that ordinary decent people don't know what is happening and so couldn't have done anything about it.

you tell me then..how you can keep ferrying girls out of a care home like that without someone inside being connected to what you are doing..thats not turning a blind eye..its being part of it..its like a conveyor belt...how do you get the taxi's paid for by the council and know that no one will question it?

i think what you don't like about the idea is that you can't politicize it if its a paedo ring..coz it could be happening anywhere then..and you only believe it happens in northern leftie towns
 
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Missing the point entirely. This is not about how it was done and what the arrangements were and who booked what taxi and when. And aside from that, as ive said, some of the stories bear no relation to the scenario you are painting

Its a complete side issue

left wing councils ignored and suppressed accusations against muslim abusers on a huge scale. They didnt do so because they were participating,a s seems to be suggested. the report makes very very clear why they did it. As I said, todays story is more sinister still

It is absolutely 100% political. The report states unequivocally what the problem was and why it mushroomed. Trying to pretend otherwise is ridculous


And if it isnt political, ask yourslef why that bitch tried to tear away kids from UKIP foster parents? Rotherham was not acting politically in childcare? Do me a favour

All this deflection from the issue will not wash. The electorate knows what a vast swathe of the "guardian reading left" stands for and the tories can go in and hammer that home at the next election
 
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This is a follow up comment to a repulsive comment piece in the Guardian





But can it really be true – as the tabloids and the right robustly claim –that a significant contributor truly was political correctness; the fear of officials that by intervening appropriately in cases where the suspects were Pakistani Muslims, they themselves would be castigated as racist? If it is, it is outrageous. It is also ludicrous.

Good grief. The report itself states:

There was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.

The fact that we have a situation in which frontline staff will hesitate to protect children from sexual abuse for fear of being branded racist is, frankly, indicative of a society gone completely bonkers.

And I am fed up with the Guardian's attitude and its fingers-in-ears denial of what is obvious to everyone else. Get your heads out of the sand and face facts. Seriously, it's shameful.
 
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what about the police..its not 100% political..only in your head...they to me are the main problem here..they have hidden crimes

why did the police ignore all accusations ..lose evidence on a large scale...and tell an 11 year old girl they gave consent to sex so nothing can be done...they are all lefties as well are they?

i don't give a fig about the politics...you are obsessed with it..was Hillsborough political too?

Are you happy about a police force like this?

I'm listening every morning to people who live there...actual people who witnessed things that go beyond politics

just for once in your life forget politics..because this is a bit more serious than that..don't tell me that police treat people like that just because they live in a labour town..its nonsense.
 
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Absolute crap EC

Dont waste my time if you cant even take a cursory look at the headlines from the report and its findings. FFS a significant finding is copied above

Hillsborough? Are you serious?
 
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When i first heard about this i knew that politically it was people getting away with things because they were scared of being accused of being racist....thats the nature of this country now...the whole country.

When i heard that a police force has acted in the way it has..i want to know why that is the case..that isn't political at all..ignoring serious crimes..what has that got to do with the town's politics?

You are saying they acted like that because they are in a Labour town..thats the nonsense Clive

Whatever politics a town has has nothing whatsover to do with how the police do their job..and by that i mean losing evidence..ignoring serious crimes etc.

.this is a complete failure of the police to do their job..you don't seem to care about that bit.
 
clivex said:
You STILL havent taken on board what the report says
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i have no doubt that the council is a bag of sh*te Clive

I'm angry and concerned about the policing of this..they should have exposed the council by prosecuting rapists and paedo's...and reporting the council if any influence was put on them to go easy on certain criminals

You think its been policed ok i assume
 
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I think there's more than a grain of truth in what Clive says, but he's over-stating it. You need to remember that those people invoking the fear of being branded a racist (which ain't a great career move admittedly) are also looking for an explanation to justify their own inertia. The two can come together quite neatly. It is true however that a Robespierrian culture of denunciation took root in some work places, and that a quasi orthodoxy started to engrain itself. It tended to be middle/ senior managers, and officers a few steps removed from the frontline who were most guilty (policy wonks). Frontline staff had a better understanding of the various misdemeanours going on in communities and that they weren't as prone to fall for idealistic illusions that some kind of glowing lovely ethnic flagship was sailing around the inner urban areas of our cities. It's also true that people could build careers out of pedalling this kind of culture too, and whereas Clive over states it, there was an attendant threat in the working culture that you weren't really encouraged to say certain things, or if you did need to report something, you knew it had to come from within the community concerned (who for the most part were even more intimidated about reporting on their own)

My own experience of this kind of thing is that reporting it was a waste of time. No one would act on it, and then you're card would be marked for having done so.
 
clivex said:
left wing councils ignored and suppressed accusations against muslim abusers on a huge scale.
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It's still a tip of an iceberg Clive, although how much of the bigger will ever be allowed to come out is another issue. I wouldn't be rushing to make it a party political thing if I were you though, there are some very serious names in the frame from the conservatives
 
what about the lack of action by the police?..ignoring serious crimes..don't the actual victims matter in all this?..is it just another political bash by such as Clive with his tunnel vision..political bashing is more important than the law of the land being blatantly not carried out?
 
EC1 said:
how do you get the taxi's paid for by the council and know that no one will question it?
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Very easily

There'll be a budget head for taxi travel on a series of expenses signed off by budget holders under delegated authority. Ever since the green revolution and discouraging of paying private transport allowances many more public transport and taxis are embedded in that budget. So long as you stay under the budget allocated it's not normally challenged. All you need to do is submit a scrawly handwritten receipt and state something generic on the 'reason for visit' (usually one line on a form). "Inspection visit" or "meeting" will normally suffice. The destination you give doesn't need to be a location, you can possibly get away with a suburb name, as very often the only thing the counter signatory is looking for is a mileage and an excessive claim

The person signs the declaration that it's honest. The budget holder signs to say that the expenses payment folk can repay it and charge their budget head. Finally a third person signs to say they processed the payment. Taxis running round care homes wouldn't generate alarm bells ringing until it became so frequent that it could qualify as a carosuel. No idea of the volumes involved, but if a manager had embeded a working culture of one check up visit per home per night, no one necessarily know any better. There's no national standard/ benchmark. It would require an outsider who used to work for another authority that visited once a month to come into post and query why Rotherham was launching such frequent visits. They'd probably be told that it was a matter of policy, and that this is how we do it. I suppose it could strike them as unusual, but it's asking a lot of them to then link the two together and report to the police that Rotherham are using a lot of taxis
 
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Warbler said:
It's still a tip of an iceberg Clive, although how much of the bigger will ever be allowed to come out is another issue. I wouldn't be rushing to make it a party political thing if I were you though, there are some very serious names in the frame from the conservatives
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Rubbish
 
EC1 said:
what about the lack of action by the police?..ignoring serious crimes..don't the actual victims matter in all this?..is it just another political bash by such as Clive with his tunnel vision..political bashing is more important than the law of the land being blatantly not carried out?
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Dont fcking patronise me when you are too lazy or stupid to actually give a moments understanding to the reports findings

You have absolutely no place commenting on this thread if you cannot spend one second understanding what drove the lack of action and the culture of fear within the departments concerned

It has been made explicitly clear in the findings. How you or anyone else can ignore that is beyond me
 
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you don't like criticising the police Clive do you?..you can't blame lefties for them..and at end of day that's where every discussion with you ends up

i'll say again..i don't care which party it is..90% of politicians are cocks.

where are the police in this?
 
clivex said:
Dont fcking patronise me when you are too lazy or stupid to actually give a moments understanding to the reports findings
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but everyone is lazy and stupid apart from you Clive..so you don't need to mention it..it goes without saying..we all know how thick we are in comparison to you

i don't care about the politics..i expect most politicians to be easily influenced and be scared and useless..its you that holds a lot of store by politics..and i don't know why because politics is such a load of willy waving boll*x half the time..not far behind religion in the illness stakes..as amptly demonstrated on every thread by your good self

my politics is better than yours..my religion is better than yours....yawn yawn yawn
 
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