Rotherham

[clivex]

Wrong yet again.

 

[clivex]

but everyone is lazy and stupid apart from you Clive..so you don't need to mention it..it goes without saying..we all know how thick we are in comparison to you

i don't care about the politics..i expect most politicians to be easily influenced and be scared and useless..its you that holds a lot of store by politics..and i don't know why because politics is such a load of willy waving boll*x half the time..not far behind religion in the illness stakes..as amptly demonstrated on every thread by your good self

my politics is better than yours..my religion is better than yours....yawn yawn yawn

No its a valid criticism because you are dishing it out and couldnt even look at or grasp the basics. Thats deserves everything i throw back

I find it the ultimate second rate copout to intrinsically blame repulsive cases such as this on all politicians. Absolutely ridiculous

 

[EC1]

i grasp the basics Clive..a lot of people haven't done what they are paid for due to whatever political leanings they have been brainwashed with..and i hope they get brought to book...but more seriously here..the police have ignored serious crimes...they also appear to have allegedly lost evidence to hide the fact they have ignored them as well

you only care about the council and their politics..you seem to think that the police ignoring serious criminal acts doesn't matter

me just blaming politicians..wtf..are you having a laugh???..its you thats just blaming politicians..what a comment..you are heaping it all on them

i've done with discussing it any more Clive..life's too short

 

[clivex]

It was clearly too short to spend a minute reading the headlines from the report too

 

[clivex]

I think there's more than a grain of truth in what Clive says, but he's over-stating it. You need to remember that those people invoking the fear of being branded a racist (which ain't a great career move admittedly) are also looking for an explanation to justify their own inertia. The two can come together quite neatly. It is true however that a Robespierrian culture of denunciation took root in some work places, and that a quasi orthodoxy started to engrain itself. It tended to be middle/ senior managers, and officers a few steps removed from the frontline who were most guilty (policy wonks). Frontline staff had a better understanding of the various misdemeanours going on in communities and that they weren't as prone to fall for idealistic illusions that some kind of glowing lovely ethnic flagship was sailing around the inner urban areas of our cities. It's also true that people could build careers out of pedalling this kind of culture too, and whereas Clive over states it, there was an attendant threat in the working culture that you weren't really encouraged to say certain things, or if you did need to report something, you knew it had to come from within the community concerned (who for the most part were even more intimidated about reporting on their own)

My own experience of this kind of thing is that reporting it was a waste of time. No one would act on it, and then you're card would be marked for having done so.

Im sorry warbler, how do you know that im overstating this?


The report says this
There was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.

So that is an overstatement too then? You think such a culture would come from anything other than a particular branch of politics?

This is hugely damaging for labour

 

[EC1]

i've read the report Clive

i've also heard what a shocking disgrace the police are

you only care about the politics

i'm out

 

[Warbler]

Im sorry warbler, how do you know that im overstating this?


The report says this
There was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.

Well let's have a look at what you quoted, and what you posted

"It is there in the report. Mustn't upset "community cohesion" or some such. Mustn't accuse Muslims of anything at all because that would be "racist"

"confused" and "interpreted" are probably the key words in the report. For me the telling word however is "would", as that indicates a definitve decison, when a correct interpretation should be "could".

It doesn't say that an instruction had been issued. What it seems to imply is that a series of myths had taken hold and that these had somehow become interwoven into an orthodoxy. I wouldn't dispute it's existance in fairness, but tend to think it's being over used. Let's not forget who these people are, what questions they're being asked, and the circumstances that have led to those questions being asked

It should be clear to you (or anyone for that matter) that the people answering the question possess a very strong incentive to give an answer that absolves them of culpable negligence and transfers the blame elsewhere.

The retort should have been how do you know this would have happened to you? (being branded a racist). How many of you who reported something have subsequently found yourself up on a racism disciplinary hearing? I'm not sure that the explanation given really stacks, but it will send the reactionary media off in that area

If however there are dozens of people who tried reporting their concerns who were subsequently had up on trumped up charges of racism then clearly there is substance to the allegation. If not however ...... well you can fill the gap in. They're guessing

So far as i can see the only evidence you've put up so far concerns UKIP of all things? Is that the best the report can come up with by way of a substantive evidence beyond a collective perception

So all its got otherwise is the conclusion that this is what people felt would happen to them, even if none of them tested it? It's a bit like saying if you look into the mirror and say bloody mary three times you'll see the devil.

As i stress, the people giving these answers do a possess an incentive to explain their own lack of action Clive

For all that however, I do possess quite a lot of sympathy for them, as I suspect that what they're saying is probably very true, even if they're likely to be over stating the gravity of it. What would have happened in reality is that they'd have been persuaded to withdraw their allegation/ report, not because of fear of what might happen to them, but because a senior manager on a nice salary with pension rights didn't want to jeopardise this by having to convene, hold, and ultimately pass judgement on a hearing. The manager would have been more terrified than the initial accusser, until it went up the line to a culpable person who would in all likelihood be sitting in judgement of themselves (in a roundabout way)

I also suspect apathy will be another contributing factor in people's failure to address the issue of reporting, but this is one which people would rather not admit to. There is also likely to be a culture of passing round a hot potato too which is endemic in the working culture (people seek out the soft grazing round of work areas like strategy and policy, and don't like the actual doing). Race issues, more so than any other, tends to be an area that gets shovelled around as no one really wants to accept responsibility for it given that its a bloody minefield

 

[Warbler]

Rubbish

Very optimistic to suggest that the conservatives are singularly immune form deprived sexual behaviour, and that's inconceivable that any of their notables are in no way linked

If you want to say "rubbish" permit me therefore to sink to your level and dismiss your wish as "stupid"

 

[clivex]

I said it was rubbish because we are talking about Muslim gangs in rotherham and i find it very unlikely that they were controlled by the tory party

What you are posting is just a desperate attempt to drag the conservatives into a story which has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Pointless.

 

[clivex]

So far as i can see the only evidence you've put up so far concerns UKIP of all things? Is that the best the report can come up with by way of a substantive evidence beyond a collective perception

The report doesnt even mention that.

why were staff scared of flagging abuse by muslims.? isnt it pretty clear what the culture was? Where it orginated?

The report said council staff were scared of being accused of racism by flagging up the issue in a town of nearly 260,000, where 8 per cent were from black and minority ethnic backgrounds.

 

[Warbler]

Why indeed Clive. That is the question.

Just because they were scared of being perceived that way, doesn't constitute evidence that they would be unless it had been proven and that everyone of them who reported something was subsequently had up on a race allegation

As I keep stressing, they have an incentive to find a plausible explanation, and preferably one that deflects attention from themselves too.

These types of investigations are carried out over months. People are required to come forward and give evidence by appointment. Staff have ample time to compare notes and as it becomes apparent that 'explanation A' is working, they will reinforce that and apply the line etc The investigators are then left with very little alternative other than to report what they've found. Investigators are rarely allowed under their terms of reference to enter personal speculation even if they have reservations. It's why so many reports can whitewash if the responding group apply what I've heard called "rule one".

There is actually a very similar burden at play here though to that which concerns racism ironically that right wingers often criticise. The burden in race cases as to whether an action has occurred is the 'perception of the complainant' (or beholder). It's often mocked with phrases along the line of "you call that racism" or "you can't even say this now" because someone has perceived there to be a race slant on something. This one is from the same stable. The expectation of what the complainants think would happen to them becomes the burden of the reality, regardless of whether it would or not

For all that, I happen to think it's likely that it would have been a factor, and I don't believe their fears are completely baseless and without foundation, even if there isn't a great deal of evidence that they were tested

I think there's also a temporal issue at play. Everyone hears something or witnesses something for a first time. You almost start from a position of apathy without realising it. I remember the first time I came into contact with certain information, and you're sort of left thinking, well if I know this, surely there must be hundreds, probably thousands of people in more influential positions than me, with better evidence than me, who can do something about it? Why haven't they? When you ask these questions you're often met with a sort of shrug that says that's politics, that's the way it is, yes there are different rules for different people - get used to it - it's always been the case and always will be, albeit you might get the occasional correction that lobs a bandaid on a wound, but nothing more than that

 

[Warbler]

I said it was rubbish because we are talking about Muslim gangs in rotherham and i find it very unlikely that they were controlled by the tory party

What you are posting is just a desperate attempt to drag the conservatives into a story which has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Pointless.

I see a much bigger picture which is the whole rotten body politik of the UK. The Tories are equally as capable of indulging, and equally as capable of blind eyeing or whitewashing enquiries

 

[clivex]

I see a much bigger picture which is the whole rotten body politik of the UK. The Tories are equally as capable of indulging, and equally as capable of blind eyeing or whitewashing enquiries

Well until there is an equivalent story surrounding a tory run council i dont really think its worth mentioning

 

[clivex]

At the end of the day, limp excuses made for the council leaders and police commissioners will mean absolutely nothing.

The electorate can and will see this very clearly for what it is

 

[Warbler]

At the end of the day, limp excuses made for the council leaders and police commissioners will mean absolutely nothing.

The electorate can and will see this very clearly for what it is

Politicisation of Police force through creation of commissioners = Tory policy
Islamification of our schools and creation Trojan horses = Tory policy
The Big Society, where an even more fertile ground is prepared for abuses = Tory policy

I'm slightly surprised you haven't worked out that in nearly all the most recent spate of council scandals the linking thing has been female managers

 

[icebreaker]

Islamification of our schools and creation Trojan horses = Tory policy

Really? The conservatives have a policy to radicalise schoolchildren towards jihad? I'm stunned to read this.

 

[Warbler]

Absolutely

They create the circumstances in the sure knowledge of what must follow. They even had the Labour party's 2007 green paper to work on called 'Localism'. Labour rowed back from it when these concerns were raised, but the Tories ploughed on under the guise of the Big Society and the breaking up of municipal provision and handing it instead to activised neighbourhoods. The Tories were certainly warned that this would be a cosnequence of their policies but they took no notice. Perhaps they're trying to create an environment of conflict and hate in order to prosecute a longer term policy? I note they've raised our threat level today, not bad considering only a week ago calamity Cameron was totally dismissing the possibility of any UK military action (until the French offered to supplant the UK as America's best friend in Europe). He's now got a bit of problem though as he looks round his box of soldiers to see what we can offer and realises that outside of a base on Cyprus the answer is pretty well zilch until such time as he can get some aircraft for his container ship

 

[clivex]

I'm slightly surprised you haven't worked out that in nearly all the most recent spate of council scandals the linking thing has been female managers

whats that supposed to mean?

 

[clivex]

The electorate will not blame the raping of kids by muslims and the subsequent cover up and lack of action by a left wing council on the tories Big Society

Nor will they blame the rapes in Rotherham on schools in Birmingham

As for the last post.....

 

[Warbler]

whats that supposed to mean?

It was the way you kept referring to Sonia Sharp as a bitch. I was wondering whether or not you might be pursuing another agenda of female public officials being promoted beyond their ability. Sharon Shoesmith might be another?. The Norwich 'homes for workers' scandal was another that involved women managers, and the less said about the rotten borough of Suffolk under Andrea Hill the better. Even the Tories asked for forgiveness and a new slate after they finally settled up the score there. On top of that of course there's been a spate of others resulting in removal from post and tribunals in some cases where competancy has been a related issue. Not sure what happened in Kent, Leicester, Oxford, Cheltenham (I seem to recall) and Nottingham has had an allegation of political nepotism hanging over it

 

[icebreaker]

Islamification of our schools and creation Trojan horses = Tory policy

Perhaps they're trying to create an environment of conflict and hate in order to prosecute a longer term policy?

You may be right. But, honestly, it is the very first time I have encountered this theory of the Conservative party having "a policy of Islamification of schoolchildren".
Honestly, even in the wilder, deeper recesses of the Tor network where the extreme conspiracy theorists hang out, I haven't come across anybody expressing a similar philosophy. Such a concept would be kinda "far-out" even for them.

______________________________________

 

[Warbler]

All the clues are there

 

[clivex]

It was the way you kept referring to Sonia Sharp as a bitch. I was wondering whether or not you might be pursuing another agenda of female public officials being promoted beyond their ability. Sharon Shoesmith might be another?. The Norwich 'homes for workers' scandal was another that involved women managers, and the less said about the rotten borough of Suffolk under Andrea Hill the better. Even the Tories asked for forgiveness and a new slate after they finally settled up the score there. On top of that of course there's been a spate of others resulting in removal from post and tribunals in some cases where competancy has been a related issue. Not sure what happened in Kent, Leicester, Oxford, Cheltenham (I seem to recall) and Nottingham has had an allegation of political nepotism hanging over it

No. I only posting to refute that entirely. Ive worked for high profile women and amongst best bosses ive had.

 

[Warbler]

I believe you Clive (really - I do)

If its any consolation, I do think you're general sweeping politisiation of this whole Rotherham scandal is actually likely to be reasonably close to the truth. I think it likely as well that interviewed officers have sought to blame a culture that probably did exist, but which they might not have tested fully, and are perhaps seeking shelter from it as an excuse and therefore over-stating its all pervading nature. I suspect apathy and low morale (general belief that nothing would get done) are equally at play

I suspect that EC is also right however in that the role of the police is critical in this as the last line of defence. They've failed spectacularly, but why?

Police soft pedalling on ethnic miniorities is unusual. The allegation made with much greater frequency is the opposite. It suggests that a Chief Constable or senior management group has gone seriously ... I don't know .... dysfunctional (I'll be polite). The police is hardly a bastion of left wing liberalism, so its either a rogue whose got through, or a political influence that must have come from outside. It's strange. They've behaved in an authoritarian right wing manner exhibiting all the hallmarks of a bent constabulary that brutalises and supresses, and yet they've seemingly done so in defence of a broadly leftist agenda

I suspect there'll be some factionalising and in fighting between agencies that stopped them functioning, that's quite common, but this abuse is on an industrial scale and I simply don't believe all those people saying they had no idea. Local Authorities are seriously indiscreet places and their biggest critics who are normally more aware than anyone when things are failing to function are the junior and middle ranking staff. There's normally no shortage of disgruntled staff, and plenty who will have quietly left in disgust during this period who might then have been free to speak.

 

[clivex]

I will say that if the police had had any professionalism at all or any sense of duty they would have entirely ignored political pressure. On that point I agree with ec

I also thnk that perhaps because of past heavy handedness (although that was surely far More directed towards another community) then there is a fear and perhaps overcompensation. But that is abolsutely no excuse