Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

Headstrong said:
There's another question of how far FAG is still improving - which is, has AOB left something to work on for these late season races, or have the Derbys etc taken a lot out of him already? I'd say he's had tougher races than STS and that counts in terms of the Arc (imo).

I don't find any of the Ballydoyle horses that impressive this season - I would rate them all below New Approach for example, difficult though it is to compare horses from different seasons. And I rated that one above HenryTN last year. I would rate STS above any of those - his winning margins don't begin to tell the story, so speed ratings seem meaningless to me in that context. I'm mystified why some people still seem to want to downgrade the horse - and EC1 is right, it does seem to be the 'usual suspects' to some extent, who always talk up Ballydoyle horses.

I also think it's well worth taking on board what Kinane and Oxx have said about this horse, and his intrinsic superiority. They both remember the great horses of the past 35 years and saw them in action (as have other observers eg Sir PO'S), and rate STS superior.
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So in your opinion STS has been very little of note this year - in my opinion the brilliant STS has beaten top class champions from Ballydoyle that in any other season would be the clear rated colts. That is what makes STS so good....but equally it marks Fame And Glory (who actually had a mid season break for these Autumn events) down as a serious Arc contender.
 
Headstrong said:
I don't find any of the Ballydoyle horses that impressive this season - I would rate them all below New Approach for example, difficult though it is to compare horses from different seasons. And I rated that one above HenryTN last year.
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Only on his final start, when they allowed him to bowl along over his best trip, did New Approach show the kind of form that would have made him competitive against the best performances of Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory and Mastercraftsman this season. Sea The Stars would have done to him what he did to them.

I would rate STS above any of those - his winning margins don't begin to tell the story, so speed ratings seem meaningless to me in that context.
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Who's been talking about speed ratings?

I'm mystified why some people still seem to want to downgrade the horse - and EC1 is right, it does seem to be the 'usual suspects' to some extent, who always talk up Ballydoyle horses.
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Considering that :

a) EC1 was replying to a post by me
b) I'm of the opinion that Sea The Stars is the best horse I've ever seen
c) I was arguing that he was being under-rated in the Eclipse thread

I'm going to call that comment what it is: bullshit.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Only on his final start, when they allowed him to bowl along over his best trip, did New Approach show the kind of form that would have made him competitive against the best performances of Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory and Mastercraftsman this season. Sea The Stars would have done to him what he did to them.



Who's been talking about speed ratings?



Considering that :

a) EC1 was replying to a post by me
b) I'm of the opinion that Sea The Stars is the best horse I've ever seen
c) I was arguing that he was being under-rated in the Eclipse thread

I'm going to call that comment what it is: bullshit.
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Probably one of the best put downs in the history of the forum !
 
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EC1 said:
a classic race is one that is memorable due to the quality of horse involved imo
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Fame is high enough rated to be a legitimate classic winner and unless you want to lobby to downgrade the Irish Derby from its classic status (retrospectively), he will remain a classic winner (with respect, irrespective of your opinion).

...so there!:p
 
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True Euronymous, but three olds that have habitually competed in the race have been absolute champions subsequently whisked off to stud. Older horses, maybe less os. could explain the win ratio
 
Very good Gareth :D

However I'm slow so I'm still stuck on trying to work out the argument that if none of this year's Ballydoyle horses are up to much and not as good as New Approach, how can Sea The Stars possibly be such a standout horse, if he's only been beating crap Ballydoyle horses?!

It's got me knackered!!!!!!!
 
clivex said:
True Euronymous, but three olds that have habitually competed in the race have been absolute champions subsequently whisked off to stud. Older horses, maybe less os. could explain the win ratio
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Ten 3yo's have won the race since 1996, only half of them went off to stud. Hellisio, Montjeu, Bago, Hurrucane Run and Rail Link all stayed in training.
 
I knew you would do the anorak bit...

But still think its a tough race and its a minor but not overriding factor
 
Rail Link may have stayed in training but he never raced again and he was packed off to stud within six months.
 
Far too early to be deciding things like that, Gal. I'll probably declare my interest in both threads and then have a thorough read through both (beginning to end) on the morning of the race before deciding where to post my pre-race thoughts.

I'd imagine SteveM will almost certainly be on the Arc thread, but I'd say he'll need far more than 50 pages to be seen to best effect. Just doesn't have the turn of foot to deal with such a fast-moving thread.
 
Euronymous said:
Ten 3yo's have won the race since 1996, only half of them went off to stud. Hellisio, Montjeu, Bago, Hurrucane Run and Rail Link all stayed in training.
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Actually, only four of them went off to stud. Peintre Celebre was also kept in training as a 4yo but picked up an injury in the spring.
 
The trainer agrees that these days Flat racers are a harder sell outside the Turf's esoteric realm. "It's getting harder. At the time of Nijinsky and all those horses, racing had a higher profile, didn't it? It was a bigger sport nationally than it is today. Newspapers are taken over by football and all sorts of things. Racing is struggling to keep its share. I think Sea The Stars is getting there, all right. People who don't have a racing interest have said to me they know about Sea The Stars."
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In Ireland maybe, no-one I know has a clue.
 
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