Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

Hamm said:
Coolmore would be wasting their time taking on STS in the breeding shed with 5 RVWs and 5 MCMs; better off to wait a year.
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He could be a flop at stud, so it is not a case of wasting their time if one of them (most likely MCM) ends up first season sire champion in the same year as STS - particularly given STS is unlikely to get a huge amount of early types.
 
On the subject of performance vs achievement...

Timeform rate Sea Bird at 145, and Brigadier Gerard at 144.

Of the races which would now be classed as Group 1s, Sea Bird won the Prix Lupin, Derby, Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud and Arc.

Brigadier Gerard won the Middle Park, 2000 Guineas, St. James's Palace*, Sussex Stakes, QEII* (twice), Champion Stakes (twice), Lockinge*, Prince of Wales's Stakes*, Eclipse and King George.

Which is the better horse?

*only Group 2s at the time
 
Hamm said:
On that point, isn't Sea the Stars a good example of how ratings have less relevance for horses at the top end of racing as for handicappers etc?
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Of course so... it's very unlikely that STS would run in a handicap, so his rating has only theoretical value for historical reference and his CV at the start of his breeding career (after a crop or two the rating is largely forgotten with performance at stud taking over as the yardstick by which he is valued).
 
Gareth Flynn said:
On the subject of performance vs achievement...

Timeform rate Sea Bird at 145, and Brigadier Gerard at 144.

Of the races which would now be classed as Group 1s, Sea Bird won the Prix Lupin, Derby, Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud and Arc.

Brigadier Gerard won the Middle Park, 2000 Guineas, St. James's Palace*, Sussex Stakes, QEII* (twice), Champion Stakes (twice), Lockinge*, Prince of Wales's Stakes*, Eclipse and King George.

Which is the better horse?

*only Group 2s at the time
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Both were great performers and great achievers.

Most who witnessed Sea-Bird's Derby and Arc would be pretty comfortable in nominating him at the best in Europe. Secretariat would set the standard in the US. It's a difficult thing to compare Sea-Bird with Secretariat, but they both had outstanding qualities.
 
My feelings are somewhat mixed. Part of me thinks Thank goodness his reputation is untarnished but part of me would have loved to see him as a four year old. I don't think he is the finished article yet physically and in my mind the Arc was the first time he really learnt to use himself properly and extend that beautiful stride. In all his other races, he just looked like he was dossing slightly yet when Mick asked him in the Arc we got that lengthening and rapid response.

Wonderful horse and I really hope he takes after his half-bro and goes on to be a champion sire as well.
 
Would someone be good enough to copy and paste Nick Mordins piece on the arc from his website. Id would like to see the forums reaction to it especially the ratings and time junkies on here.
 
LET'S NOT GO OVERBOARD WITH SEA THE STARS

I confess that I am having a bad reaction to all the praise that's been heaped on SEA THE STARS (43) after his win in the Arc de Triomphe. Yes it was a smart performance on the clock. But every year around the world we see at least half a dozen to match it on my speed ratings. And I don't think the adulation the horse is getting for his admittedly brilliant feat of winning six Group 1's in a row is good for the sport.

It seems to me that that the attention Sea The Stars is receiving promotes what I see as two very bad ideas. The first is that a horse can establish itself as a Champion in a single season. The second is that an unbeaten string of victories is the true mark of a great horse.

The connections of top horses need to be encouraged to risk defeat for their charges without the prospect of torpedoing their stud value. If we reserve our highest praise for those that are fortunate enough to establish a long unbeaten streak we're doing a disservice to the sport. We're forcing many of the best horses to be retired early for fear of breaking their winning sequence and losing millions in stud value.

I have little doubt that Sea The Stars would have been beaten in the Irish Derby or the King George if he'd run in either race. The going was too slow for him at the Curragh and the Ascot race would have come too soon after a big effort that left him tired in the Eclipse. By avoiding those races Sea The Stars has managed to win eight in a row and be widely recognised as an all time great. Perhaps that's justified. But plenty of other horses as good or better than him on my ratings have run in unsuitable races and thereby sacrificed their chance of setting up a big winning sequence. And they've never been given the recognition they deserved.

I'm not a fan of comparing horses from different periods. But as far as I'm concerned the fastest horse we've seen in the last ten years was Falbrav. He clocked a series of incredible times at every distance from a mile to twelve furlongs in seven different countries across four seasons. But because he failed to establish a big winning streak he never gained the recognition that Sea The Stars has in the space of a few months. The very fact that Falbrav was such a globetrotter also meant he failed to generate the intense local press coverage that Sea The Stars has thanks to racing solely in Europe.

Don't get me wrong here. When he won the Eclipse Sea The Stars earned the biggest speed rating I've given a three year old in around a decade. But he's not come within two lengths per mile of that rating in any other race. So I'd like to see him do it again before being sure that the big number wasn't due to some error on my part.

However it looks like I won't get the chance. Towards the end of the Arc Sea The Stars was visibly tiring. You can see it from his sectional times of 5.5, 5.6 then 6.2 seconds for the last three 100 metre sections. He wasn't as tired as he was at the end of the Eclipse but trainer John Oxx did say he was tired the next day. Add to this what jockey Mick Kinane has said about Sea The Stars having gone in his coat and it hardly looks likely that we'll be seeing Sea The Stars again. He's surely going straight to stud.

If I had my way no stallion would be eligible for stud duty unless it had won a Group 1 race at four years of age or more. The present crazy system that we have allows hype to replace sustained racecourse performance and prevents horse-racing from having the long-established stars which draw fans to every other sport.

YOUMZAIN (42) was attempting to become only the second Arc winner older than five and made a valiant effort to run second in the big race for a third consecutive time. He has always needed a strong early pace or soft ground to bring his stamina into play and has benefited from the pacemaking efforts of team Coolmore in the last three Arcs. But the truth is although he's reached the first three a remarkable fourteen times in seventeen Group 1 races and run close in the other three he does lack the push-button acceleration that usually makes the difference between winning and placing in middle distance Group 1's. This is why he's only managed one win in his last sixteen starts.

Frankie Dettori did well to have CAVALRYMAN (42) prominent in the chasing group right from the start. But he did have to use a bit of his mount's speed to get there early on. Cavalryman also managed to get his tongue over the bit from halfway. So it was a good performance for him to only just miss the runner up spot and keep on strongly.

Godolphin racing manager Simon Crisford feels that Cavalryman would have appreciated a bit more cut in the ground. Clearly he's very effective on firm ground but he doesn't have a brilliant turn of foot, so his comment makes sense. Cavalryman should also appreciate the stronger early pace of racing in Britain where he'll be racing next year. The King George looks his logical big target.

CONDUIT (41) put in a great prep for his bid to win back to back runnings of the Breeders' Cup Turf, running on well to pass half a dozen horses up the straight and only miss second by half a length. His chance at Santa Anita is probably going to hinge on Coolmore putting in a pacemaker for whatever they choose to run. If they don't put in a pacemaker he could be in trouble as he looks to need a strong gallop to run at.

DAR RE MI (41) ran right up to her best. She was always prominent and kept on well. However I'm not convinced about her chances in the Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf. She lacks the turn of foot that's normally required to win that race.

BEHESHTAM (39) ran close to his best despite finishing twelfth. He disputed fourth in the main group early on before closing up when the pacemakers fell away to get to within two and a half lengths of the lead with a furlong and a half to go. He lacked the pace to challenge from there and got squeezed out with 150 yards to run. He wasn't given a hard time from there.

Clearly Beheshtam would have found it easier to pick up ground and avoid trouble if he'd had the cut in the ground he seems to need. I hope he stays in training because I see him winning a Group 1 when he gets his ground next year, even if he sticks to a mile and a half. Over the longer distances he's bred for he could be a smart Cup horse.

Further back in the field THE BOGBERRY (38) continues to look interesting. He got into all sorts of traffic problems when finishing well, ridden only hands and heels in this two comeback races. And he again took a bump here shortly after entering the homestraight despite being kept wide of the other runners most of the way. It seems likely that he's best in smaller fields. But he did manage to finish a close fourth in the Hong Kong Vase last year in a field of thirteen so he'd be a live outsider in that race once more. He'd also have a great shot in the Champion Stakes as it's run on a straight course which would give him far more room to manouver and avoid getting impeded by his rivals
 
A horse wins 6 of the biggest races in a season, and Mordin criticises him for missing out a couple. :lol:

As for him tiring at the end of the Arc... as Ardross pointed out, look what he did when Soumillon came upsides on Stacielta to congratulate Kinane - shot off again!
 
Oh yes:

http://www.nickmordin.com/uk_august_2009.htm

In any event, the race was certainly interesting from a time perspective as the pacemakers ensured a strong gallop which helped Sea The Stars lower the track record.

This was quite some performance by Sea The Stars. For a long time Mastercraftsman seemed to be holding him. Then in the last hundred yards he dug deep and found what was needed to get by his rival.

The huge concern with the future in mind is that Sea The Stars had a second really hard race in a row. He looked seriously tired at the end of the Eclipse on his previous run, and trainer John Oxx confirmed the Sandown race had taken a good deal out of his charge. He's since said that Sea The Stars appears to be suffering less ill effects from the York race. But my ratings suggest his performance, brilliant as it was, ranked two fifths of a second per mile behind his Sandown success. It seems to me he is regressing and will regress further unless he's now rested for several months.

It is worth bearing in mind that Sea The Stars has now won four Group 1 races in a row.

The only horses in the last fourteen years to win more than four Group 1's in a row were Duke Of Marmalade, Giant's Causeway and Rock Of Gibraltar. All of them were trained by Aidan O'Brien.

I'm convinced that O'Brien's ability to win more than four Group 1's in a row with the same horse stems from the fact that he leaves a good deal more condition on them for their first start than other trainers. Stats from Hong Kong show that the average horse loses eleven pounds after a race and takes four weeks to gain the weight back. A big win in a ten to twelve furlong Group 1 probably causes a significantly bigger weight loss. And I reckon O'Brien's horses are the only ones that start out with sufficient bulk to withstand the weight loss involved in winning five or more Group 1's in a row without a break.

I find it hard to believe that Oxx would seriously think of bringing out Sea The Stars again, just eighteen days after this tough race, in the Irish Champion Stakes, even if he did get the fast ground he seems to need. I'd bet against him winning with a good deal of confidence if he did. After posting two successive monstrously fast times Sea The Stars looks set to 'bounce to the moon' as an American friend would put it. My research shows that the American bounce theory, which holds that horses often regress due to the effect of a fast recent race, is sound.

If he were mine I would be bundling Sea The Stars off to stud. I believe he'll lose if he is run again this season.
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:lol:

(emphasis mine)
 
Pleased to hear that he's missing the Breeders' Cup, but displeased (but not surprised) that he's never going to race again.

Nothing more to prove? This sort of nonsense, apparently widely believed, is one of the main reasons why the future of flat racing is so dismal.

These days, the idea that a champion racehorse should retire simply because he is a champion seems mad to most people. STS's Arc win really delivered the magnetism of top class racing to a wider audience, and now he's just b*ggered off.

What will people whose interest's been kindled by this great horse make of it? Answer: they'll think "what sort of 'sport' is this?"

As for his prospects as a stallion, well, his outstanding performances on the track and his pedigree give him every chance to succeed, but it's certainly odds against. He has an extreme outcross pedigree, and while heterozygosity may have helped him as a physical specimen on the racecourse, it's far from clear that it'll help him in his new career. I'm trying to think of such a pedigree producing a really successful stallion, but I can't come up with one, although no doubt there have been instances.
 
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Well, Nick Mordin's a known idiot so what he says doesn't count anyway!

It is a shame that Sea The Stars won't be racing as a four year old but let's be honest, that was sadly never an option anyway.
 
Great post Venusian and of course its "an option"

The public will always feel a bit of distance from a sport which gives the impression of being nothing more than a vehicle for the rich to get richer
 
With due respect to J. Oxx and his team, like Zarkava last season I think it is a waste. I would have thought the primary reason owners get involved is for sport, not to make money and as such when you have been blessed with a great horse why not run them at four and enjoy them for longer? They send them to stud in the hope of getting another when they already have one. I know it is a risk in terms of stud value and injury plus STS has been busy enough this season but phrases like its a relief it is all over etc. baffle me.
 
For God's sake Clivex, I say it was never an option as realistically, it was never going to happen. Of course he could have stayed in training as a four year old and I'd have loved to have seen him do so, but from the start it was pretty obvious that it wasn't realistically being considered. Anyone who thought the horse was seriously likely to say in training next year was deluded. That given, there's no point crying over spilt milk as there is the square root of bugger all any of us can do to change connections minds.
 
I think John Randall and Mordin are being perverse, and missing several points; but as several have noted, the ratings boys will never quite 'get' Sea The Stars

It;s ridiculous to state he was 'tired' at the end of the Arc - he took off like a rocket round the back of the course when he thought the filly was challenging him! Kinane was easing down as he knew nothing was going to reach him. Oxx said he was tired from the journey, and the incredible razzmatazz and attention - not the race!

For me, the measure of STS's greatness is not just in the variety of distances at which he excelled, but in the fact he never really had to exert himself.

I have two regrets that he won't stay in training (besides the obvious selfish reason): one is that we shall never see him give his all so we'll never really know how good he was. Speed ratings are largely irrelevant for such a horse. The other - a much lesser one - is that he was coddled so far as going is concerned and this one fact is imo the only thing which can detract form his place in the pantheon. I can see however why Oxx did this - running on unsuitable ground does risk injury, not just defeat. Oxx has always done what was right by the horse (and is doing it now)

As for the 'relief' aspect as expressed by Oxx, none of us has the slightest idea what pressure is involved in handling flesh and blood of this significance and value through a season. It must be a very heavy responsibility indeed; and the memory of the injuries to Mill Reef, Peintre Celebre etc must play a part in any such decision. It would be tragic indeed to lose those genes - and i can just imagine the accusations of 'greed' etc if STS did suffer a fatal injury running next year.

As for RVW: I would not touch him at stud no matter how much money I had. There is a big difference between a horse retiring early through injury, and one who has a congenital unsoundness. Foot problems tend to run in families, and his which are well documented would put me right off, esp as there are good alternatives if you are looking for an untried miler.
 
Saying it wasnt an option indicated that there was simply no choice regardless of owners desire. There is no choice if the sole reason to own horses is to maximise breeding fees and i would suggest, need the cash.

But anyway, thats picking holes maybe...i know what you mean now SL

But, what always baffles me slightly is that with more money than they can ever possibly spend anyway, why do these owners continually act as if sending then to stud is essential to keep the bailiffs away?

Can understand it if the ownership has a wider responsibility to shareholders or whatever and maybe perhaps if building an breeding empire

but its souless and reeks of balance sheet obsessiveness...

Or maybe he..ahem... prefers watching them breed to race ....


Nice post Headstrong and Oxx was a master of PR and handling all year. I cant be bothered with teh ratings argument myself for reasons you rightly state. The injury issue is a fair one, but how likely is it really? Its easy to remeber the sad stories....
 
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Headstrong said:
the ratings boys will never quite 'get' Sea The Stars
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Timeform have him at 140. Is that not 'getting' him?

the fact he never really had to exert himself.
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That's hardly a fact. Rip Van Winkle, in the Eclipse, certainly pushed him.

Speed ratings are largely irrelevant for such a horse.
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That's a shame, because he's put up some great performances on the clock for which you don't seem to want to give him credit.
 
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