Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

Of the two Danehill Dancers I've been closely involved with; both were utterly useless and struggled to win a race [one of them has won at least one race however], nevermind be worth a twentieth of the price of the covering fee Danehill Dancer is estimated to stand at. Both would struggle to fetch £3k if sent to the sales now (in fact one of them was sold for less than £1k at a public sale, if I recall correctly).

Edit - apologies, on looking at them, one of them had won 2 races, one of them 3 races (both animals registered one win each in sellers). However both are not much good and the wins were long behind them by the age of 4!
 
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SteveM said:
...Just not those that STS took part in.
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Erm - like the Irish Derby

Let's look at his victims

Fame and Glory - Irish Derby

Rip Van Winkle - Sussex & QEII

Conduit - King George

Mastercraftsman - Irish 2000 and St James's Palace

Jukebox Jury - Preis von Europa G1 , Grand Pris de Deauville & Rose of Lancaster

Cavalryman- G1 Grand Prix de Paris

Dar Re Mi Prix Vermeille ( disq) Pretty Polly G1 Yorkshire Oaks G1

Stacelita G1 Prix d'Essaid des Pouliches , G1 Prix de Diane G1 Vermeille

Vision d' Etat G1 -Prix Ganay , G1 Prince of Wales's Stakes

Getaway G1 Grosser Preis von Baden Baden G1

Casual Conquest - G1 Tattersall Gold Cup

Lord Shanakill - G1 Prix Jean Prat

Delegator- Celebration Mile G2

Finjaan - G2 Lennox Stakes

Monitor Closely - Great Voltigeur G2

Debussy - G2 Prix Eugene Adam

Kite Wood - G2 Geoffrey Freer Stakes 2nd St Leger

Black Bear Island - G2 Dante Stakes

Lord Admiral - G2 & G3 winner

Vocalised - multiple G 3 winner

Recharge - G3 winner

Ouqba- G3 Jersey Stakes

Steele Tango G3- Darley Stakes

Grand Ducal G3 Gallinule Stakes

Ashram - listed Dubai Duty Free Cup

Ocean's Minstrel - Surrey Stakes Listed


I keep forgetting - he didn't beat much...:rolleyes:
 
Galileo said:
Sure he was only running against a Cup horse...
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Far from it ! Fame and Glory is a very good horse but as ever the great is the enemy of the good.

I hope and expect - so long as the regular stuffings from STS have not left too much of a mark - that F & G wins tomorrow . I shall be having a saver on Never on Sunday though .
 
Ardross said:
Erm - like the Irish Derby

Let's look at his victims

Fame and Glory - Irish Derby

Rip Van Winkle - Sussex & QEII

Conduit - King George

Mastercraftsman - Irish 2000 and St James's Palace

Jukebox Jury - Preis von Europa G1 , Grand Pris de Deauville & Rose of Lancaster

Cavalryman- G1 Grand Prix de Paris

Dar Re Mi Prix Vermeille ( disq) Pretty Polly G1 Yorkshire Oaks G1

Stacelita G1 Prix d'Essaid des Pouliches , G1 Prix de Diane G1 Vermeille

Vision d' Etat G1 -Prix Ganay , G1 Prince of Wales's Stakes

Getaway G1 Grosser Preis von Baden Baden G1

Casual Conquest - G1 Tattersall Gold Cup

Lord Shanakill - G1 Prix Jean Prat

Delegator- Celebration Mile G2

Finjaan - G2 Lennox Stakes

Monitor Closely - Great Voltigeur G2

Debussy - G2 Prix Eugene Adam

Kite Wood - G2 Geoffrey Freer Stakes 2nd St Leger

Black Bear Island - G2 Dante Stakes

Lord Admiral - G2 & G3 winner

Vocalised - multiple G 3 winner

Recharge - G3 winner

Ouqba- G3 Jersey Stakes

Steele Tango G3- Darley Stakes

Grand Ducal G3 Gallinule Stakes

Ashram - listed Dubai Duty Free Cup

Ocean's Minstrel - Surrey Stakes Listed


I keep forgetting - he didn't beat much...:rolleyes:
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I don't think you've interpreted that quote correctly...I don't think SteveM was implying that STS hadn't beaten much, just those horses who've finished behind him then gone on to win group races simply weren't good enough to win group races when STS was in the line up.

That's just my interpretation :confused:
 
Fortunately I did not back Never on Sunday - less fortunately I did back Mawatheeq.

Just need to add Twice Over G1 Champion Stakes to the list of what STS's victims did !
 
After yesterday, can we now expect the Irish Champion rating given to Fame and Glory to be revised? As I've said many times before, there is simply no way this horse is a 130+ horse over 1m2.
 
I don't think yesterday's performance has anything to do with F+G's Leopardstown rating. If the O'Brien camp were confident that he was holding his form he would have been kept for Santa Anita and not sent to Newmarket.
 
You could be right to question his rating, all I'm saying is that I don't think his run yesterday has any bearing on it. He should stay in training if connections want to prove he's worth that rating.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He clearly didn't run to form yesterday, so I don't see the logic.
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I agree that Fame ran to well below his true form in both the Arc and the Champion Stakes. But I also think he was overrated in the Irish Champion. I think he has probably run to 128-130, with the potential of about 132. His last couple of runs were well below any of these figures.
 
imagine said:
I don't think you've interpreted that quote correctly...I don't think SteveM was implying that STS hadn't beaten much, just those horses who've finished behind him then gone on to win group races simply weren't good enough to win group races when STS was in the line up.

That's just my interpretation :confused:
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Thanks. Yours was the right one. I could have worded it better though.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He clearly didn't run to form yesterday, so I don't see the logic.
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My logic is that certain horses (ie, Mastercraftsman) didn't run to form (which i believe is overrated regardless) in Ireland, hence the rating given to FAG for the Irish Champion makes no sense.

Does anyone know the best RPRs/TF ratings over 1m2 for:

Falbrav
Dylan Thomas
Dubai Millennium 140?
Azamour
& other top 1m2 horses of recent years?
 
Hamm said:
My logic is that certain horses (ie, Mastercraftsman) didn't run to form (which i believe is overrated regardless) in Ireland, hence the rating given to FAG for the Irish Champion makes no sense.
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Ok, but what's that got to do with anything that happened on Saturday?
 
If a horse doesn't reproduce a figure in subsequent runs, you have to go back and look whether you are still happy with the initial figure, so I think Hamm is spot on in questioning whether Fame And Glory is worth the figure initially awarded. However I also agree with Gareth that the 2 runs since are not close to sorts of races I'd like to draw strong conclusions from, so for now, I'd be giving him the benefit of the doubt.
 
As you know, I think the 132/133 rating given to FAG in the Irish Champion is nowhere near what he actually achieved, and what his maximum level of performance is. My view was backed up in that he never came close to this before the Irish Champion, never looked capable of it prior to the race, and his two subsequent races since (while not performances showing his true level of ability) back up my assertion.

To think FAG is rated close to or better than many great 1m2 horses (without seeing the figures admittedly) is just plain impossible.
 
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