Shannon Matthews Found Alive, Unharmed

An C, you live in Ireland. Maybe you don't have the same problems over there that we do here, with hordes of feral kids running about stabbing one another, and hordes more neglected at home and sent to school with no breakfast etc etc because their mothers don't give a stuff. Some kids' home life is pure hell. It must surely be clear to even the most egalitarian among us that this woman is not fit to be a mother? [Nor was mine btw, middle class tho we were. Neglect comes in all manner of situations, tho I never went hungry].

But why should the taxpayer hand out housing and endless cash to this woman? - and encourage her to have all these functionally fatherless children? I do genuinely think it's a social and personal disaster.
 
Its not about whether a mother is fit to be a mother. Its about the right of a child to be a child. Why do you insist in punishing the victim?
 
Headstrong.
There have always been feral kids causing problems, thieving and worse. Ever heard or seen the pictures of the East End in the 19th century? Historically even without support poor families often had large numbers of children in this country but also even now in developing countries. Children often died young, and having a large number usually meant the parent had support in old age. The children could also support each other.
I can speak from experience, my boys' grandparents and their siblings amount to 30 people, 7.5 children per family.The average number of children from each of those 30 is probably around 4.In my generation the average is probably 3-3.5. ( there's such a lot that it difficult to be exact.
It was a proud boast that up until my generation that none of the family had ever gone to the dole, as it was known.There was no other state benefit although I recall collecting free orange juice, castor oil, and tinned baby milkfor my younger sisters. I also recall getting free school dinners for a short period until my grand parents found out and told my parents of the shame that brought upon the family. Family stuck together and there were enough of us to take on the world.

Very low incomes, a little bit of stuff from somewhere in the docks or 'off the back of a lorry' though not the one dad drove. I vividly remember when we got a load of cloth that was used to make curtains, cover the sofa, cover the table when folded, and to provide new coverings for the 'quilts' on the beds. A couple of years later I realised that it was the same material that was used as seat covering on the trains that ran from Liverpool Street.

As far as I can tell the offspring of each generation had the benefit of parental and family love and care that was sometimes strict and carried it through to their children with only a few exceptions. All without handouts from the state. Indeed it was only recently that I realised that barring a very small number, all families rented private houses or flats and did not start getting council properties until the slum clearances in the mid 60's.( It is noticeable that some of the 'slum' buildings left behind now sell for up to £1million)
Government measures such as controlled rents were a great benefit which did not cost the state. By and large families stayed close for support and would know the children of other families, which encouraged a general sense of community and discouraged bad behaviour by the kids. Not always the best circumstances but it worked. It worked when a large group of the family moved to the green pastures of Dagenham with its wide avenues and abundant playing areas, even real gardens back and front! Joy of joys, most of you will find it hard to imagine the collective exhilaration, it was the promised land in 1968. Jobs at Ford, at all the other host of factories down on the river and on the industrial estates.

Two changes of Government policies turned Dagenham into the 'Nam' warzone that it is now. The first was well meaning legislation that put unmarried mothers at the front of the queue for council accommodation and provided them with additional benefits. The second was Maggie's selling of council houses under the right to buy which combined as it was with a wholesale attack on manufacturing industry really hit the children of the working class.

The council houses were sold at a huge discount to sitting tenants and councils were not allowed to use the funds generated to replace their housing stock. The council tenants with good incomes bought their houses, those without such incomes didn't. The children of the latter group had to go into the increasing expensive private market to get a home which was fine if they had good paying employment. If they didn't they were stuffed. At the same time a lot a good paying jobs disappeared and were replaced with low paying jobs in retail parks and other service industries. Full employment but lower wages for the unskilled. Dead man's shoes on a much reduced council housing stock became the only way those at the lower end of the wage structure could hope to get accommodation.

But to get council accommodation one had to have enough points to be given the opportunity. Unmarried mothers got to the front of the queue. If they had one child they were given a flat in one of the high rise areas of the Borough, if they had 3 children they got a house after a relatively short period of time. with 4 children they could get a 3 bed semi. This accommodation was provided essentially free with payment being made from State benefit. All in all a reasonable move by the Government to support those in need. Unfortunately because of other events it became the easy way to get a house. To discourage this some official had the bright idea to change benefit rules so that if a co-habiting partner shared the accommodation, benefit would be withdrawn, thus penalising those with a stable relationship. What happened was that either the partner was kicked out or moved away, perhaps back to his parents, and either visited fairly infrequently to comply with the rules or buggered off.

The result, council houses with young women with large numbers of children and no men.That equals lots of very short term relationships and by Government policy no stable relationships unless one of the partners has a very good income.

In Dagenham the problem was exacerbated. Many of the inner London Boroughs had little or no stock of council houses and to fulfill their obligations either struck deals with the council to acquire houses for the immigrant families they could not house or made substantial financial contributions to tenants of their council houses
so that they could buy former council houses in Dagenham.

Here again sod's law plays a part. The worst Inner London Council estates from which escape to Dagenham might seem attractive are in Hackney and Newham, both very multicultural. The incentives were offered to families where fewer than the maximum lived in a house.White residents tend to have lived there longest and don't want to move because they have their roots in the area and adopt a 'we have stuck it out ' attitude. The Asians generally like to stay in their existing communities and it appears that a significant number of people accepting the offer were single black women with teenage children, some of whom had left home and were keen to get their children away from some of the more unpleasant aspects of their estates. Unfortunately moving into an area that had been almost exclusvely white (not for any deliberate reason I would hope) the young black kids were not welcomed by the local yobs and there has been a rapid growth in gang culture presumably driven by self protection.

Like many working class areas throughout the country the substantial majority of the residents are decent people trying to live, raise their children properly, get along with their neighbours of whatever creed or colour and the like. The emergence (or re-emergence) of a growing, minority, feral, underclass has been the result of Government policies. Rather than address the symptoms with ASBOs and prison sentences there should be a comprehensive review of the benefits system. As AC posted don't punish the kids', every innocent life is valuable, but devise something that does not give an incentive to produce kids in order to get a house nor penalise stable relationships.
 
To be honest Colin, I think it's you. The McGann's were guilty of possibly a foolish act on one evening. Madelaine had a healthy happy existance up until that evening. Karen Mathews appears to have been guilty of neglect of her kids ( not just Shannon ) over a much longer period. The fact her daughter is safe, doesn't make her act any lesser an evil. For all we know, if still alive, Madelaine may still have a better life than Shannon had at home.
 
TS - interesting reading, thanks for posting

DaveG - it has been reported (oviously I can't guarantee the accuracy of these) that the McCann's had left the children on most of the other nights of their holiday - not the kind of behaviour you'd expect of a GP and a consultant. I've had a friend staying with me from America recently and apparently they'd be done for child negelect over there. Obviously not the case here but whilst I still very sorry for them that they've lost a child I still can't believe they were so foolish.
 
.......yet they have appeared to have achieved 'celebrity status' for this foolishness.

Was it the European Court they appeared in front of yesterday, demanding the setting-up of the American-style system when a child goes missing?

You have got to admire the thickness of their skin and the brassiness of their necks. :angy:
 
When Mrs O and I were young parents, our daughter cried a lot for a spell while teething etc. It was a harrowing time for us, not knowing what to do for the best etc. We called the doctor because we were so worried about why our child was crying so hard, so loud and for so long.

The doctor's advice? She's a baby. Babies do that. Put her in her room, shut the door, go downstairs and put the TV on loud enough so you don't hear her. She'll be fine after a while.

The McCanns are doctors.

Without possession of the facts, it is dangerous to listen to hearsay to the effect that the McCanns habitually left their kids in their apartment while they were out partying.

A fact that has emerged was that there was a rota system among them and their friends to check on all the kids every half-hour.
 
Im not sure that they have sought celebrity status but on the other hand, they certainly seem to be less than media shy when the point of "no return " (oh dear) has seemingly been reached

Seems like theres some anti Mccann leaking in the press today from the Portugese ploice (who really seem to dislike the Mccanns....)

Given that the Mccanns have had plenty of space to do their own finger pointing i dont have much sympathy
 
Originally posted by Colin Phillips@Apr 11 2008, 09:09 AM
...........it wasn't good enough, was it, DO?
No, but how many hundreds of other families do likewise on holiday and the kids turn out to be in no danger. Most of the 'reputable' holiday firms offer a babysitting service which amounts to a rep checking on the kids at regular intervals, often not as regularly as every half-hour, while the parents are downstairs having fun and thousands of holidaymakers each year take advantage of the offer.

This was as much desperate misfortune as neglect.
 
Without possession of the facts, it is dangerous to listen to hearsay to the effect that the McCanns habitually left their kids in their apartment while they were out partying.

Without possession of the facts the Mccanns should have not pointed the finger at cleared suspects (who did not refuse to answer all the questions asked of them too)
 
I don't mind admitting that I have done what the McCanns did.

That is, leave my kids, now grown up, in a hotel or apartment room asleep on their own and check them at regular intervals. The worry would be that they might wake up in a place they don't know and take fright. I would never have dreamt in a million years that they might have been abducted.
 
I have done it. I think we were always more adjacent than the McCanns and the kids were a little older and could find us and know the situation. But we did it a couple of times.

I feel bad writing that, but it's the truth.
 
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