Should British Racing Be Worried?

Eleanora Duse said:
As handicaps are supposed to be a level playing field, how was the score GB vs, Ire in those races?
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I'll answer my own question. The score in handicaps was 7-2 in favour of Irish trained. Now I can accept hypotheses that Irish trainers have all the best horses or that they are the better trainers, but that's supposed to be levelled out in a handicap isn't it? So why in this milieu should they also be all-powerful. Answers on a postcard to Mrs Harrington.
 
One of the ways handicappers on both sides of the Irish Sea decide their ratings is to look at the marks given to previous winners of a race. But might it be that if the general standard of a population of horses is rising, the ratings won't reflect this if they are always being pinned to previous standards? This won't matter if the standard of both populations is rising at the same rate, but if one lot is improving relative to the other, won't they then be at an advantage in handicaps?

Another question: We saw last month that after Energumene's performance at the Dublin Racing Festival caused his mark to rise to 162, the British handicapper responded by raising Shishkin's mark a further 2 lbs purely in order to keep him as the top rated novice in these islands. Does this inclination to keep British-trained horses at the top of the ratings tree have consequences for rest of the population, and does it end up hurting their chances in handicaps?
 
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Good points. It will be informative to see if Timeform or the official handicappers reassess ratings of some of these handicap winners after last week.
 
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barjon said:
Harry Fry:

He said: “They’re doing everything better than we are, quite simply. We have to congratulate them on a fantastic week, and aspire to the heights they’ve hit.
“We’ve got to raise our game – big time.
“There’s going to be lots of thought and conversations going on. We’ve already started that, from recruiting the right horses to getting the right owners involved. It’s everything – it’s the race planning, the team at home, the staff that work with the horses.
“There’ll be a lot of British-based trainers taking a hard look at themselves and working out where we can raise our game – because we need to, or we’ve going to get left behind quickly.
“We’ve got big owners investing in Irish racing, because there is some sort of return, and there isn’t here. It’s hard to justify to owners when you’re running around for £3,000 in a race.
“I won the Grade 1 Tolworth, and I didn’t even win £20,000 for winning a Grade 1.”
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It might be worth pointing out that Irish prize money is mainly funded by 2p in the £ betting tax, something I've advocated in the UK for a number of years, on this forum.
No more levy begging bowl, no more kowtowing to bookmakers wishes, and the wherewithal to fund free-to air TV racing, with the possiblityof wresting betting markets back from super-rich soccer.
What's not to like for, such a meagre impost?
 
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Irish Representation in the handicaps:

Chases
Ultima - 2 out of 16 runners
Grand A - 7/20
Plate - 5/23
Kim Muir - 4/24

Hurdles
FWinter - 12/22
Coral Cup - 7/26
Pertemps - 6/24
County - 16/24
M Pipe - 10/24

These figures would back up the handicappers' claim that the chase ratings are more 'aligned' than the hurdling ones.

Could it be that the relatively few runners in the Pertemps is down to there being relatively few qualifying races in Ireland. Were any of them abandoned this season?

Could it also be argued that the Irish have far more runners in the races in which novices are likely to do well? If so, does that have implications of its own?
 
reet hard said:
It might be worth pointing out that Irish prize money is mainly funded by 2p in the £ betting tax, something I've advocated in the UK for a number of years, on this forum.
No more levy begging bowl, no more kowtowing to bookmakers wishes, and the wherewithal to fund free-to air TV racing, with the possiblityof wresting betting markets back from super-rich soccer.
What's not to like for, such a meagre impost?
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Yes, it certainly seems to have got back to front with racing kow-towing to the bookmaking industry rather than the correct way round. Betting tax was ok, but it killed off professional punters like Alec Bird whose modus operandi only gave them 2.5%/3% ROI. Mind you, it was 5% which was a bit greedy and it never came back to racing.
 
Wasn’t it 10%? Sure it used to cost £11 to have a tenner on


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viking said:
Wasn’t it 10%? Sure it used to cost £11 to have a tenner on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes, you’re right, with 5% on course. Came down to 4% on-course and 71/2% off-course. Raised a bit later on and abolished in 2001 and replaced with a 15% tax on bookmakers’ gross profit. (None of which filtered back into racing I don’t think).

Ps: you could also choose with your bookie to pay tax on your winnings and not on the bet if you wanted.
 
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jinnyj said:
O’Neill for me has always been something of an enigma. Backed by the top owner in the game (and one of the most generous) he just hasn’t ever hit the heights he should have done (IMO)
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I'd agree with that.
Someone who knows him very well, asked him about taking my Muppet into training; the only thing he asked about him was which stallion was he by and when told, he replied 'wouldn't touch one of those with a barge pole'. Didn't want to see him or pictures/video of him, family relations etc. So obviously getting paid enough to not want to attract new owners, so comfortable then.
 
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At the risk of sending Tanlic over the edge

Who is the next serious British trainer

Nicky at this stage cotton wools them to the point of depravity

PFN still spends an arsenal of money on horses but trains them to win trainers titles rather than having a superstar festival horse
 
granger said:
At the risk of sending Tanlic over the edge

Who is the next serious British trainer

Nicky at this stage cotton wools them to the point of depravity

PFN still spends an arsenal of money on horses but trains them to win trainers titles rather than having a superstar festival horse
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In terms of numbers of winners or quality of winners, or both maybe?

I really like Phil Kirby but he has clear intentions to try and concentrate on breeding in years to come I think, breeding some lovely types, and I think he places horses very well but deliberately limiting his numbers of horses in training.

Skelton just because he has the financial clout right now- in terms of numbers I am thinking. Seriously hampered by brother riding - yes I know he rides plenty of winners but he really isn't very good in the cold light of day.

A lot depends on owners coming in with serious money and backing someone like Fry/Mulholland/Williams/Thomas maybe.
Alan King if he had a major backer in terms of numbers of horses. He's still young enough to make an impact.
 
Barjon, I’ll tell him! He’ll be thrilled! Actually you couldn’t meet a nicer, more humble guy. For someone who has been top of his sport for so long, he’s very unassuming. And his wife is top showjumper, Harriet Nuttall. I imagine if he ever decide to train professionally he would do well.
 
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Olly Murphy has had an unbelievable sum of money pumped into his yard. He spent over £1.5m at the 2018 Derby Sale as an example, with the best of that crop currently rated 125. There aren't many owners in the UK who spend as much as the Hesters and they appear to be focusing on his yard yet...

He's spent even more buying up horses who have beaten his supposedly good things only for them to come to nothing. His stock can't jump fences either - Itchy Feet, Brewin and Thomas Darby all s##t the bed over fences when looking promising.
 
I remember the first time I had a pound on a horse in an Irish bookie shop it cost me £1.20 inlcuing the tax. How on earth.....??
 
I know you're a lot younger than me, AC :), but are you sure about that?

Was the situation different in Ireland compared with the UK?

I don't think there was an option to pay the 'tax on' until a few years after the tax was introduced.

I definitely remember the 10% tax. Was it 5% to start with? Or was it reduced to 5% later?

Was it 12.5% or 8% at some point?
 
an capall said:
I remember the first time I had a pound on a horse in an Irish bookie shop it cost me £1.20 inlcuing the tax. How on earth.....??
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That is absolutely correct -I think Charlie McCreevy was asked about it one night on the Late Late Show and made it clear that he never paid it.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I know you're a lot younger than me, AC :), but are you sure about that?

Was the situation different in Ireland compared with the UK?

I don't think there was an option to pay the 'tax on' until a few years after the tax was introduced.

I definitely remember the 10% tax. Was it 5% to start with? Or was it reduced to 5% later?

Was it 12.5% or 8% at some point?
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It was 10% in 1977 'cos my youngest brother said he'd put a Pound on for me on first scorer in the Cup Final, and I picked Stuart Pancho Pearson, and I 'won' £12.60 and was very annoyed that I had lost the £1.40!!
 
10% off-course, 5% on-course to start with
Reduced after a few years to 71/2% off-course, 4% on-course
Raised a bit to 8% / 4%
Stopped in 2001 and replaced by 15% tax on bookmakers’ gross profits.
None of this taxation filtered its way back to racing so far as I am aware.

Ps: in UK
 
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I tend to think the race program is just as much to blame. Too many festival horses have canters round at 1/4 for their prep run. The last couple of years even the king George / tingle creek have been a shadow of the races gone by.... far too much opportunity for good horses to avoid each other
 
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