St James Palace Stakes

just got in and watched - first impressions - mastercraftsmen - pure class - Delegator - unlucky to meet one as good

the pace..superb..no one can complain..a proper test- probably the truest mile race we have seen for 3yo for some while

I might change my mind on a few things later :lol:

Steve - its a great animal - but you must have filled em when Delegator took the lead
 
I've nothing against them running pacemakers as long as the horse is ridden within the rules. He was having his mouth scrubbed off for 2 furlongs and was a beaten horse 2 1/2 furlongs from home.

I'd be tempted to say it's an illjudged ride but from past experience we regularly see Ballydoyle run horses too fast early and finish out the back.

I hope the stewards have a word with connections to see if next time they run him in a Group 1 (given he doesn't have much chance when front running) they might try and hold him up and see if he finishes within 30 lengths of the winner.
 
Your point is exactly why people have an issue with it Gareth - they use pacemakers as they see fit from race to race, rarely running them on their merits. I personally don't think it should be allowed but it's not a huge thing for me. However, i don't think you, or others, should complain when IS makes a perfectly valid point.

On topic of 3yo milers ... Sea the stars aside, and I doubt we'll see him over mile again, I think it's the worst crop in years. I don't think any should be rated 120 or above, and Arazan on a sound surface is the only hope.
 
Flame said:
Sort of agree but for me Set Sail was cooked there and given he was 4th in a French Guineas he certainly wasn't ridden to achieve that identical performance.

In some countries don't they declare as pacemakers ?? so there finishing position is void, I would personally like to see that with a couple of races and so on, as those type of horses are never betting propositions and is there really any worth for them in the betting ?
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Treat them like reserves in Ireland - if the reserve wins bookmakers pay out on the second as the winner, third as placed, fourth placed etc. and could declare him as a pacemaker.
 
Euronymous said:
Were Bustino's pace makers ridden on their merits in the '75 KG? No, they were ridden to take the sting out of Grundy's finish. This AOB baiting is xenophobic imo and should stop.
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? ... I'm Irish. That comment makes you look silly.
 
I'm not baiting O'Brien on the basis that he's Irish - his nationality has diddly squat to do with it, I'd say the same about any other organisation attmempting such tactics (I have said it about Better Talk Now's connections in the past) but I fail to see how racing off and scrubbing along for that far that early is likely to help Set Sail obtain the best finishing position possible?
 
I'm not fully understanding the pacemaker issue tbh

its been clear for a long while now that AOB makes the pace for whichever horse he thinks he has that will win..this is at odds with the traditional pace making we have seen in the past..where the pace maker makes the race a true test

where is the problem?

any trainer can enter a horse to pace make..if AOB wants a slow pace..he has it..others need to put their own in to counteract it

if this is a problem then maybe the rules need changing

AOB is using the system...its a competeive game

as a punter..i know today he ran the pace for M..so why would i back any other AOB horse??

I'll just add..i don't have allegiances to any stable
 
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Great race, Mastercraftsman was soft ground for a mile or 10 furlongs on this sort of ground. Delegator wants 6-7 furlongs or could be interesting in the Sussex Stakes.

I really hope they do not run Mastercraftsman in the Sussex Stakes...its would be a disaster. Give him a break now and bring him back to 10 furlongs or the French Group 1s over a mile.

As for the pacemakers....pacemakers are defined in the rules as permissable. MCM went around his pacemaker today....no rules broken no need to mention them.
 
Shades of last years King George there.

I'm still not completely convinced by Mastercraftsman to be honest, and ironically I'm half wondering what might have happened had they actually had Spencer on board Delegator, although I think he committed Delegator reasonably early (by his standards at least) in the Guineas
 
I've nothing against him entering a horse to make the pace EC1 as long as it suits that horses running style, gives him a chance too etc. in this case I'm not certain it gave Set Sail the best possible chance of winning - the rules may have been changed (judging by what Gal's put they probably have and in which case I apologise to AOB and Coolmore) but don't all horses have to be ridden to obtain the best possible placing?
 
He is...

Mastercraftsman would be ideal for the champion stakes at newmarket. Agree that running him in the sussex would be terrible, if he really didnt like the ground. Could spoil him
 
Irish Stamp said:
I've nothing against him entering a horse to make the pace EC1 as long as it suits that horses running style, gives him a chance too etc. in this case I'm not certain it gave Set Sail the best possible chance of winning - the rules may have been changed (judging by what Gal's put they probably have and in which case I apologise to AOB and Coolmore) but don't all horses have to be ridden to obtain the best possible placing?
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Don't worry IS, it is hard to keep up with "BHA's new rulebook dedicated to Aidan O'Brien"...I actually do not think they have changed...pacemakers are allowed.
 
clivex said:
He is...

Mastercraftsman would be ideal for the champion stakes at newmarket. Agree that running him in the sussex would be terrible, if he really didnt like the ground. Could spoil him
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Only messing...Hamm is definitely Irish!!

I am not worried about the ground for MCM...more the track. He got lost in the Newmarket dip and his big rthymical stride would be completely thrown out on the ups and downs of Goodwood.
 
Irish Stamp said:
I've nothing against him entering a horse to make the pace EC1 as long as it suits that horses running style, gives him a chance too etc. in this case I'm not certain it gave Set Sail the best possible chance of winning - the rules may have been changed (judging by what Gal's put they probably have and in which case I apologise to AOB and Coolmore) but don't all horses have to be ridden to obtain the best possible placing?
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IS..I really think this issue is pretty complex tbh..especially now that AOB has turned this pace game on its head

I think you have to work out which horse AOB wants..Derby RVW looked it...he was wrong about which his best chance was in that race....but if I owned F&G I would have been deeply unhappy

today he clearly "used" others for M to win

he has been doing this slow pace stuff to suit for a long time now..personally..I think the guy is very clever..thats not saying he is clever in a way that benefits a punter..but he shapes a race to suit..is that not his job?

one thing is certain..anyone that believed that pace is not the key issue in a race..has changed their minds now

today was a great use of pace..a little slower and Delegator would have eat the winner for speed
 
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clivex said:
He is...

Mastercraftsman would be ideal for the champion stakes at newmarket. Agree that running him in the sussex would be terrible, if he really didnt like the ground. Could spoil him
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Would agree with that. I'd put him away now until the Irish Champion Stakes, then on to the English version. He will not be winning a Group 1 on proper summer ground, but would be very difficult to beat over 1m2 ongood to soft or worse.
 
Personally I'd have left the rulebook alone and pulled anyone who's horse was ridden like that today in and if they'd said "oh he was making it for X or Y" would have chopped them a fine - it's annoying as there'll be people at Ascot today backing the horse in good faith that all that can be done to ensure he has a good shot at winning will be and then they run him like that.

If anything it should benefit punters if he runs two horses in a race like that and one day you'll get 2 horses who are effectively booked for the last two places making up a 9 horse field and you'll get 3 places on a 7 horse race :)
 
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