Sheikh
At the Start
To my eye, yes, OTT. He won't be out again I predict.
Yes, barely, I agree with his official rating 124.He won a **** Guineas and an average Derby.
St Leger
- Thread starter SteveM
- Start date
To my eye, yes, OTT. He won't be out again I predict.
Yes, barely, I agree with his official rating 124.He won a **** Guineas and an average Derby.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
I think Camelot is nearly as good a horse as Sir Percy.
On The Bridle
At the Start
Bar the Bull
At the Start
I think in time his Derby run will be downgraded.
Maybe he is going to prove to be a really good horse, but there is a yawning gap between the form and the talk.
Maybe he is going to prove to be a really good horse, but there is a yawning gap between the form and the talk.
Sheikh
At the Start
'the talk' seems to be working.
I don't think it was slow overall either, but AOB was bemoaning it wasn't fast enough. He can't have it both ways though... it was him who voiced doubts about him staying.
He didn't win if that's what you mean, but I think he is almost certainly good enough. He's a fair bit better than the winner I reckon, over that trip or any other.
Of course he was riding to instructions. imo the instructions were wrong and Joseph wasn't alive to what was unfolding in the race.
I think he was and like you he assumed he was on the best horse in the race. If he was a "fair bit better" than the winner over the trip he should have won regardless. He had enough time to catch the winner, simple fact is he didn't.
The Godolphin horse deserves more credit than he's getting imho.
I'm not saying the winner doesn't deserve credit (although his rider deserves more), but the runner-up is much maligned. It was tactics that beat Camelot and that's my reading after the race rather than before.
My view of a race is never clouded by anything other than what I saw in that race. I'm always willing to admit that I'm wrong, but much about Camelot is right.
At least the official handicapper saw it the same as me:
“Joseph O'Brien still looked to be holding on to a fair bit two furlongs out but Mickael Barzalona threw everything at Encke just in front of him and went a few lengths clear. Camelot was then asked for maximum effort but couldn’t reel back Encke quickly enough and was three quarters of a length adrift at the line. I got the feeling Camelot could have won under different circumstances”.
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So you had no view on the race beforehand?
Personally I'd avoid using the official handicapper as a witness
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davidjohnson
At the Start
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I think when reviewing any performance, it's important to be aware of the facts beforehand. The last thing you should do, is take a single piece of form in isolation when there are lots that proceed it that will provide a fuller picture of a horses ability/attitude/racing style etc.
trackside528
At the Start
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- Apr 30, 2006
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That was my immediate thought after the race as well.
Having watched the Derby again though, O'Brien was nudging at him from two and a half furlongs out (almost a full furlong before he did in the Leger) and the horse actually took a while to engage top gear, looking slightly awkward running down the camber before picking up Astrology.
The impression he created when winning the Racing Post Trophy on the bridle hasn't really been backed up by any of his runs this year I don't think. His 'run style' actually reminds me a bit of St. Nicholas Abbey. As such, I don't think he was seen to best effect in the Leger.
Has any horse Camelot has beaten this year prior to saturday actually won after apart from Akeed Mofeed? This alone suggests he may be over-rated. It's a **** poor bunch of 3 year olds who all could beat each other any given day.
His head carriage is arguably typical of a Montjeu and let's be honest they have their quirks.
At the time I said I thought Enke pulled hard and was tired at the end hence why Camelot appeared to be flying and watching it again I'd stand by it.
His head carriage is arguably typical of a Montjeu and let's be honest they have their quirks.
At the time I said I thought Enke pulled hard and was tired at the end hence why Camelot appeared to be flying and watching it again I'd stand by it.
Camelot beat Thought Worthy in the Derby, who in turn went on to win the Voltigeur.
In the final furlong and a half of the Leger, Camelot gained ground on all the principals - not just the winner.
He also showed speed in the Guineas, and on unsuitable ground. He might not have beat much there but, given a better ride, should probably have won 6l.
In the Derby, he showed speed again and did all that he had to; comfortably, and in the Irish version - owing to the ground and probably not the best of rides - he palpably failed to show his true merit.
Whilst he's apparently no superstar (few, outside of connections, have suggested otherwise) to judge Saturday's performance as representative of his form as a whole is entirely laughable.
In the final furlong and a half of the Leger, Camelot gained ground on all the principals - not just the winner.
He also showed speed in the Guineas, and on unsuitable ground. He might not have beat much there but, given a better ride, should probably have won 6l.
In the Derby, he showed speed again and did all that he had to; comfortably, and in the Irish version - owing to the ground and probably not the best of rides - he palpably failed to show his true merit.
Whilst he's apparently no superstar (few, outside of connections, have suggested otherwise) to judge Saturday's performance as representative of his form as a whole is entirely laughable.
BennyB
Senior Jockey
What are the chances we'll see him again? Minimal I'd have thought. He'd have no chance in the Arc, can't see them taking him to the US, and Frankel stands in the way in the Champion.
Hasty retirement beckons IMO.
Hasty retirement beckons IMO.
I thought Camelot would probably win but I didn't think he was a certainty by any means and I backed against him.
It's perfectly possible in my view to subscribe to the view that Camelot isn't at all special as Classic winners go while also taking the view that he ran a little below his best at Doncaster and looking for a reason or reasons why.
swedish chef
At the Start
This thread is bordering on the edge of being boring. Oh what a joy it would have been had Camelot won and everyone would have been discussing the merits of the first Triple Crown winner for over forty years.
I think Aiden had doubts about Camelot's stamina which is why he decided not to run a pacemaker and allow a 74 rated horse to make the pace in a G1. This was noticeable in the immediate after race interview where he was saying he should have run a pacemaker as if almost telling himself off. It wasn't the horses or jockey's fault both were in a position to win comfortably enough if good enough on the day. It was a tactical error from a trainer who for once didn't read it right and that may of been the pressure of attempting to achieve the triple crown. I'd imagine the only one having many sleepless nights will be Aiden himself, he knows this time he got it wrong.
I think Aiden had doubts about Camelot's stamina which is why he decided not to run a pacemaker and allow a 74 rated horse to make the pace in a G1. This was noticeable in the immediate after race interview where he was saying he should have run a pacemaker as if almost telling himself off. It wasn't the horses or jockey's fault both were in a position to win comfortably enough if good enough on the day. It was a tactical error from a trainer who for once didn't read it right and that may of been the pressure of attempting to achieve the triple crown. I'd imagine the only one having many sleepless nights will be Aiden himself, he knows this time he got it wrong.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I'd back him every time to beat Encke over a mile and a half. Simple fact is very few people, myself included, expected that performance from Encke and people are trying to find a reason why Camelot didn;t win when the real crux of the matter is that Encke has likely improved for the step up. His Mum stayed very well so despite the fact his brother was a patent non stayer in the Leger, Encke clearly had it in him.
Swedish, if Camelot had won people would still be decrying his achievements. Every great horse has its detractors, its human nature.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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- Aug 2, 2005
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I've done some provisional figures for the race. For me the conclusion is pretty clear. Encke ran marginally above previous form (while visually a lot better) while Camelot, for whatever reason, has run a good half-stone - about 9 lengths - off his best.
On the day, the way the race was run and the way they were all ridden, Encke was a clear-cut and deserving winner but I wouldn't necessarily expect the form to be confirmed should they meet again in future, even over this kind of trip.
I think it was a substandard race in a substandard year for 3yos.
On the day, the way the race was run and the way they were all ridden, Encke was a clear-cut and deserving winner but I wouldn't necessarily expect the form to be confirmed should they meet again in future, even over this kind of trip.
I think it was a substandard race in a substandard year for 3yos.
M
Marble
Guest
How do you draw these conclusions when Camelot was ridden too far off the pace and had no chance to run to his true level?
If Queally rode Frankel like a mile horse over a mile and six furlongs Frankel might even run a few pound below par...
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