:lol: He's good to watch though!! There was a bit of an up yours in his gesture. I quite like the little French nobber; we need people who are a bit controversial.
St Leger
- Thread starter SteveM
- Start date
:lol: He's good to watch though!! There was a bit of an up yours in his gesture. I quite like the little French nobber; we need people who are a bit controversial.
Sheikh
At the Start
My view before the race was that he looked a little ott and what ever happened there was no chance of him going to the Arc. He travelled fine but wasn't good enough. His offical rating was about correct. He was versatile, the best of an ordinary generation but no star
Several reasons ... I moved to Paris, and need to improve my French (I was spending too much time living my English life, if you like, rather than living here). I think the flat, and this isn't meant to start an argument with anyone, is pretty soulless and boring - I am happy to lose money on things I enjoy watching, but I enjoy the flat less and less (jumps different). Thirdly, and less important than the other 2, are I've seen people who are consumed by betting, thinking they win more than they do, I find that they're pretty soulless themselves, preoccupied by money to the detriment of living, and wanted to move further away from that; it depends, what comes first, the sport or the betting? For some on here I know the answer (pretty sure for example for you it's the sport first too?).
I think a lot of that makes sense to me. I have bet less on the flat than ever this year and take an interest more in the jumps because it feels more like im following a sport. following the flat can be like following a spreadsheet. Its a bit drably commercial and a little too anorak. I have never been anything other than a modest punter but frankly, even that you grow out of.
It was a great thing that Camelot was allowed to take his chance in the St Leger, bidding to become the first horse for 42 years to secure the Triple Crown, and we owe a debt of gratitude to those at Coolmore and Ballydoyle for making it happen.
How frustrating then that Camelot did not fail through lack of stamina, the one doubt that some held about him, and how frustrating that he was ridden like a non-stayer.
It’s all very well for O’Brien to bemoan the lack of pace (although rather contradictorily he seemed to doubt Camelot’s ability to stay the trip before the race, more than most), but some blame has to be laid at the door of both trainer and rider for the tactics employed.
Exactly why Camelot was left at the back, with just two rivals behind him, as they turned for home has to be questioned, given that they thought the pace was slow.
Earlier in the season at the Curragh we had seen Joseph leave St Nicholas Abbey a mountain to climb when failing to overhaul his stablemate Windsor Palace. If anything had been learnt from this it wasn’t evident in the St Leger. Anyone can be guilty of taking their eye of the ball, but in a classic of such importance it’s not easily forgivable.
Hopefully Camelot’s defeat at Town Moor will not sound the death knell for good horses attempting to win the race. Hopefully those horses will still come for the St Leger and be ridden in a way in which they have a fair chance of winning.
It was tactics not ability that floored Camelot’s St Leger bid, as I hope he will be given the opportunity to show.
How frustrating then that Camelot did not fail through lack of stamina, the one doubt that some held about him, and how frustrating that he was ridden like a non-stayer.
It’s all very well for O’Brien to bemoan the lack of pace (although rather contradictorily he seemed to doubt Camelot’s ability to stay the trip before the race, more than most), but some blame has to be laid at the door of both trainer and rider for the tactics employed.
Exactly why Camelot was left at the back, with just two rivals behind him, as they turned for home has to be questioned, given that they thought the pace was slow.
Earlier in the season at the Curragh we had seen Joseph leave St Nicholas Abbey a mountain to climb when failing to overhaul his stablemate Windsor Palace. If anything had been learnt from this it wasn’t evident in the St Leger. Anyone can be guilty of taking their eye of the ball, but in a classic of such importance it’s not easily forgivable.
Hopefully Camelot’s defeat at Town Moor will not sound the death knell for good horses attempting to win the race. Hopefully those horses will still come for the St Leger and be ridden in a way in which they have a fair chance of winning.
It was tactics not ability that floored Camelot’s St Leger bid, as I hope he will be given the opportunity to show.
This is pretty much how I see it too. Frankel has rightly been overshadowing everything and Sea The Stars did everything and more than you would expect of him. But Camelot is some colt and one that is not yet fully realised.
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
Has it been definitively established that the pace was slow? I note the time was faster than standard.
And do you know what, I hope it does sound the death knell. I have said before and I will say it again: I would way prefer to see a horse like Camelot take on the best horses in the world. Such as Frankel, Danedream, Orfevre, Nathaniel and Snow Fairy. In a race like the Irish Champ, English Champ or Arc. Not some tinpot ex-Classic contested by slow boats.
And do you know what, I hope it does sound the death knell. I have said before and I will say it again: I would way prefer to see a horse like Camelot take on the best horses in the world. Such as Frankel, Danedream, Orfevre, Nathaniel and Snow Fairy. In a race like the Irish Champ, English Champ or Arc. Not some tinpot ex-Classic contested by slow boats.
agree
I think it's quite possible he did fail through lack of stamina. If "staying" a trip involves reproducing your best form at that trip then he didn't in fact "stay". And he was ridden just as he had been in the Guineas and the Derby.
But you didn't notice that every other race (bar the Champagne) was also under standard?
Haven't seen the sectionals yet (Can anyone provide a link?), but from the little I caught of Willo's summary they covered the last 4f in under 48 secs, yet the average speed for the whole was only12.59 s.p.f. which confirms what was fairly obvious to the naked eye - they went no great pace early.
EC1
On a break
Camelot should have won by about 5 lengths if viewing his form rating and the price he ran off at. The fact he lost means he ran well below his best...5 or 6 lengths below it
The main view i came to after watching the race a few more times is that Camelot didn't like being put under pressure one bit..his head was up in the air and for about half a furlong he just would not respond...i think he either has temperament problems..or he didn't like the ground...or his run in the ID has left a mark...any or all of those.
When you look at how he reacted in the ID when put under pressure it was again not a genuine response..its like he doesn't like being put under pressure.
Just an observation..probably wrong
The main view i came to after watching the race a few more times is that Camelot didn't like being put under pressure one bit..his head was up in the air and for about half a furlong he just would not respond...i think he either has temperament problems..or he didn't like the ground...or his run in the ID has left a mark...any or all of those.
When you look at how he reacted in the ID when put under pressure it was again not a genuine response..its like he doesn't like being put under pressure.
Just an observation..probably wrong
EC1
On a break
But you didn't notice that every other race (bar the Champagne) was also under standard?
Haven't seen the sectionals yet (Can anyone provide a link?), but from the little I caught of Willo's summary they covered the last 4f in under 48 secs, yet the average speed for the whole was only12.59 s.p.f. which confirms what was fairly obvious to the naked eye - they went no great pace early.
which should have played right into Camelot's hoofs...he had the race run to suit a horse with speed for 8/12f..and was a length behind a slower horse with 3 furlongs to go..but couldn't pass him
Have to disagree with this. He rode the Derby exactly the same way and won by 5 lengths from Main Sequence; that horse was roughly the same distance behind in the Leger. He was a length behind Encke when both horses made their moves and it's easy to say in hindsight he should have been more prominent but before the race I don't believe anyone would have suggested he should have been ridden more prominently or that Encke would out kick him. He only really started gaining on Encke when Barzalona went hands and heels in the last half furlong.
I think it's unfair to criticise O'Brien jnr as I'm pretty sure he would have been riding to instruction anyway.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Does anyone think that the heavy ground he encountered in the Irish Derby took its toll?
To my eyes Camelot looked edgy and sweaty before the Leger, perhaps he was remembering that effort at the Curragh.
To my eyes Camelot looked edgy and sweaty before the Leger, perhaps he was remembering that effort at the Curragh.
Tbh Col, I thought he became unbalanced (twice in the closing stages) in the Irish Derby, and again in the closing stages of the Leger. I'd be more inclined to blame his rider's ineptitude for both those instances, rather than blame the horse.
ps. Don't remember who said it, but Camelot reportedly took 2f to pull up after the Irish Derby, which - along with the way he regained momentum, twice after becoming unbalanced, is hardly the sign of a tired horse.
ps. Don't remember who said it, but Camelot reportedly took 2f to pull up after the Irish Derby, which - along with the way he regained momentum, twice after becoming unbalanced, is hardly the sign of a tired horse.
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M
Marble
Guest
I doin't know a lot about sectional timing, but it seemed to me the gallop they went in the derby around Epsom was more conducive to the naked eye for Camelot coming from the back, than it was in the St Leger.
As Steve aludes to, the biggest issue last Saturday was, would Camelot get the trip?
I'm sad to say, due to Joseph keeping the horse on a leash for so long thats it appears to have left people in doubt as to wheher he does actually stay!
If you're on the best horse in the race, and you think you are, you just don't ride him like that.
An excellent anaylsis by SteveM imo.
O Brien is known for his meticulous planning and attention to detail, but this is one occasion where the plan was like a plan C or D, rather than a plan A or B.
Alistair Downs views in the Post on Saturday, were an abomination to the common sense of most people, or'people who frequent saloon bars' as he put it up and down the country.
By these people I take it he means the mugs who finance the sport through betting shops so he can broadcast it on channel 4.
Nice one, Alistair.
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It makes sense that being an exhausting experience it could well have left its mark. Not so much physical side as just the last time round memory that racing isnt much fun.
Some horses surely simply do not come back from a tough experience
It looks like it was a bad call to run him in that.
Also for all the moaning about second class classic or whatever, i think its class that they went for a decent bit of history rather than obsessing about some bloody rating that no one agrees on or fretting about another five quid on the stallion fee
Sheikh
At the Start
Camelot was over the top and is barely Grp 1 standard. He may have won with a better jockey.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
:lol:
Permission to use this description in future please.
He's be reinstated at 6s for the Arc with Paddys. I genuinely wouldn't take 16s.
Over the top? - in just his 4th race of the season, after an 11 week break since his 3rd.
Barely gp1 standard? - after winning 4 of them on the bounce?
Behave yourself, ffs.
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