Stamp of Greatness

Grey said:
I can't believe Sea The Stars has been forgotten so quickly.
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Wasn't as flashy as Frankel or blood and gutsy as Giant's Causeway and had some comparatively moderate horses finish close to him. When he won his Derby, I thought that I was watching a very good Derby winner. But when I saw Galileo's Derby, I was convinced I just saw a great Derby winner and I felt Sea The Stars could never escape his older brother's shadow unless he did something jaw-dropping. Unquestionably an all time great but also an underwhelming one who only ever did what he had to rather than show what he could do.

No two people will look at the same horse and see the same thing but for me, I think that's why he's fairly inconspicuous in these kinds of discussions.
 
Grey said:
I can't believe Sea The Stars has been forgotten so quickly.
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Could it be you weren't around to see Sea Bird II, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, etc?

Winning those 3 races against his own stable companions all running at the wrong trip did him no favours.

I remember there being a load of discussion about his rating. Rip Van Winkle was 119 and he beat him 1 length but shot up to 133 because Conduit a 4 year old was back in 3rd

Then he is supposed to have run to a 133 when beating Mastercraftsman 122 workmanlike by 1 length which was of course complete nonsense.

Then when he puts up a great performance in the Arc which IMO was his best ever performance they said he had run below form Duh!!!! The truth is they realised they couldn't put him up any further or it would have stunk.

TBH he was in the right place at the right time and the opposition was far from great.

Rip Van Winkle and Fame and Glory did enough eventually to justify STS getting the rating he ended up with but he was never going to be a Superstar like those mentioned on this thread

.
 
Tanlic said:
Could it be you weren't around to see Sea Bird II, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, etc?

Winning those 3 races against his own stable companions all running at the wrong trip did him no favours.

I remember there being a load of discussion about his rating. Rip Van Winkle was 119 and he beat him 1 length but shot up to 133 because Conduit a 4 year old was back in 3rd

Then he is supposed to have run to a 133 when beating Mastercraftsman 122 workmanlike by 1 length which was of course complete nonsense.

Then when he puts up a great performance in the Arc which IMO was his best ever performance they said he had run below form Duh!!!! The truth is they realised they couldn't put him up any further or it would have stunk.

TBH he was in the right place at the right time and the opposition was far from great.

Rip Van Winkle and Fame and Glory did enough eventually to justify STS getting the rating he ended up with but he was never going to be a Superstar like those mentioned on this thread

.
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Wasn't his ground in the Arc, which makes that performance even more impressive.
 
The horse scored a perfect 6 as a 3yo: 2000 Gns, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion, Arc.

He beat the best around over 8f, 10f and 12f. He ran and won Gr 1s six months in a row. Frankel was a one trick merchant by comparison.
 
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So it doesn't matter how he did it? I personally don't have any retired 3yo on my list. IMO a racehorse over flat that didn't completed their 4yo in training isn't part of the discussion for the list of legends.
 
Grey said:
The horse scored a perfect 6 as a 3yo: 2000 Gns, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion, Arc.

He beat the best around over 8f, 10f and 12f. He ran and won Gr 1s six months in a row. Frankel was a one trick merchant by comparison.
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STS was a superb racehorse no question.

Your last sentence. Think you need to have a lay down :cool:
 
Aughex said:
So it doesn't matter how he did it? I personally don't have any retired 3yo on my list. IMO a racehorse over flat that didn't completed their 4yo in training isn't part of the discussion for the list of legends.
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I prefer horses to stay longer in training but you have to admit that by the time Sea The Stars retired he had nothing left to prove. He had done it all and he was utterly convincing in doing it.

Frankel, you were a horse worthy of your rating, there is no doubt, and you were spectacular. But you were not as versatile as STS.
 
Frankel was unbeatable at 10f, suny. STS was unbeaten at that trip too (Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion) but also won an Arc and a Derby, which would have been beyond Frankel.

Sea The Stars won £4.4m in 9 starts, Frankel £3m in 14 starts.

Frankel was brilliant, no question. But STS should not be forgotten.
 
Ordinarily, I would dive in here for some cheap sport..............but old seabird has me on the naughty step. :mad: :lol:

I had no idea Sea The Stars had won all those races. Why didn't he go for the Triple Crown?
 
Grey said:
Frankel was unbeatable at 10f, suny. STS was unbeaten at that trip too (Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion) but also won an Arc and a Derby, which would have been beyond Frankel.

Sea The Stars won £4.4m in 9 starts, Frankel £3m in 14 starts.

Frankel was brilliant, no question. But STS should not be forgotten.
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Loved his Eclipse. Watched it many times. The commentary from Aussie Jim was magic.
 
Because the Irish Champion is a damn sight better race to win, Grassy, and better prep for the Arc
 
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I don't know why I'm asking, because I don't really care, but.............I expect the Irish Champion is a better race, Art, but a Triple Crown would have been a reasonably unique achievement, and place him in a very small and exclusive club, would it not? If he'd won the Leger too, there probably wouldn't be any argument about whether he was one for a stamp, I suspect.
 
Camelot is the moral winner of a Triple Crown, denied the Leger by Encke, subsequently found to have been juiced by Zarooni, but nobody's proposing him for a stamp.
 
Grey said:
The horse scored a perfect 6 as a 3yo: 2000 Gns, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion, Arc.

He beat the best around over 8f, 10f and 12f. He ran and won Gr 1s six months in a row. Frankel was a one trick merchant by comparison.
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You are being very unfair to Frankel he was no one trick pony. He'd have won the Arc standing on his head and/or the Breeders if allowed to go

Anyone who saw the Juddmonte International Stakes would have to have been the pinball wizard if they though another 1 1/2 furlongs would have stopped Frankel.

Tom Queally was so confident of him getting the trip at York he said go 3 furlongs from home. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind he put that to bed with that move.

Let's not forget our beloved Sir Henry was very ill for almost all of his 3and 4 year old career and travelling to France or the USA was a no no for him.
 
Geezuz Grey come on Camelot was rated 24lbs or something behind Frankel. It was an awful year when he won the Guineas and Derby and he got fully exposed at longchamp and was very ordinary as a 4 year old,
 
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Tanlic said:
Geezuz Grey come on Camelot was rated 24lbs or something behind Frankel. It was an awful year when he won the Guineas and Derby and he got fully exposed at longchamp and was very ordinary as a 4 year old,
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My point was that winning a Triple Crown is no longer the big deal it once would have been, not that Camelot was a superstar
 
Colin Phillips said:
Don't mind me, Grass, Senility approaches.......but I still say you can't qualify unique - it either is or it ain't!
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Col, I only went in again, because nobody bit on my "second-class stamps" gag on Page 1.........which was a shocking oversight by you all, I might add!

:lol:

PS. Agreed on definition of unique, which should rarely be used often, in the incorrect context.
 
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Grey said:
Frankel was unbeatable at 10f, suny. STS was unbeaten at that trip too (Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion) but also won an Arc and a Derby, which would have been beyond Frankel.

Sea The Stars won £4.4m in 9 starts, Frankel £3m in 14 starts.

Frankel was brilliant, no question. But STS should not be forgotten.
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Prizemoney won is irrelevant

it is very different to be unbeaten and being unbeatable.


put sea the stars in the field of all the races Frankel won and frankel would have beaten him in every start.
 
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