As someone who has always preferred the jumps to flat racing, Sea the Stars is one of the few flat horses to have made me feel I was witnessing something very special. Perhaps it was his style of running that always made it look as if he might get beat. Now a proven sire as well. So wish I had gone to York to see him or, even better, Longchamp [annoyingly I went the following year].
Stamp of Greatness
- Thread starter Diamond Geezer
- Start date
Sea The Stars won 6 of the most prestigious races a horse can go for, including an Arc. Put Frankel in that race and he would have been beaten.
Don't get me wrong, though, Frankel was brilliant.
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
How on earth did you come to the conclusion Frankel would have lost in that Arc????
The thing I could never work out is why Sea The Stars ended up on 140 but Zarkava who won hands and heels against the same horse Youmzain gets a 133
Sea The Stars was good but to have him on a par with Mill Reef 141 and Dancing Brave 140 is nonsense IMO
He obviously had a turn of foot but to be honest I think most would say Dancing Brave would have gone past him like he was standing still.
Anyone who saw Mill Reef beat Caro in the Eclipse who had won one of the strongest Prix Ganay's ever run wouldn't have Sea the Stars on their mind.
He absolutely slaughtered them that day and there was much more to come.
He took the Arc in his stride and was recorded as one of the easiest winners ever breaking the track record he was described as having flown like a bird.
A performance of a lifetime yet many would argue Mill Reef topped it yet again with the greatest performance ever seen in France in the Prix Ganay when he won by 10 lengths.
He never came out of 2nd gear that day and he could have done a Secretariat they reckon winning by 20 lengths or further. As it turned out the form wasn't strongly franked as the 2nd lost his form and never ragained it until very late in the season or we might have had a 3rd horse at the top of Timeform's tree.
I don't know how old you are Grey but having seen so many greats live like Vaguely Noble, Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, Park Top, Pebbles, Grundy, Brigadier Gerard as it happened even videos can't explain the buzz some horses gave racegoers.
Never once did Sea the Stars give me that buzz of excitement or have me jumping up and down in my seat but Frankel did as did the brilliant Zenyatta
I am however happy he made your day but for me he doesn't belong in the 140 category
The thing I could never work out is why Sea The Stars ended up on 140 but Zarkava who won hands and heels against the same horse Youmzain gets a 133
Sea The Stars was good but to have him on a par with Mill Reef 141 and Dancing Brave 140 is nonsense IMO
He obviously had a turn of foot but to be honest I think most would say Dancing Brave would have gone past him like he was standing still.
Anyone who saw Mill Reef beat Caro in the Eclipse who had won one of the strongest Prix Ganay's ever run wouldn't have Sea the Stars on their mind.
He absolutely slaughtered them that day and there was much more to come.
He took the Arc in his stride and was recorded as one of the easiest winners ever breaking the track record he was described as having flown like a bird.
A performance of a lifetime yet many would argue Mill Reef topped it yet again with the greatest performance ever seen in France in the Prix Ganay when he won by 10 lengths.
He never came out of 2nd gear that day and he could have done a Secretariat they reckon winning by 20 lengths or further. As it turned out the form wasn't strongly franked as the 2nd lost his form and never ragained it until very late in the season or we might have had a 3rd horse at the top of Timeform's tree.
I don't know how old you are Grey but having seen so many greats live like Vaguely Noble, Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, Park Top, Pebbles, Grundy, Brigadier Gerard as it happened even videos can't explain the buzz some horses gave racegoers.
Never once did Sea the Stars give me that buzz of excitement or have me jumping up and down in my seat but Frankel did as did the brilliant Zenyatta
I am however happy he made your day but for me he doesn't belong in the 140 category
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Sea the Stars was a 140 animal, his Eclipse win was tip top. But his Arc winning performance was low 130s, not a chance Frankel wouldn't have won that race. He had a stone worth of buffer
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
You should read more Grey and you would know why the horse never travelled to france.:blink:
G-G
Senior Jockey
Are you suggesting it was because poor Henry would not have been up to the journey over?
The way I see it Frankel was a raw enough beast which took a long time to tame. He was only risked twice beyond a mile, both times at the end of his career, by which time he was learing - just - to settle.
I am a fan, I was at Ascot for his swansong, he was spectacular and deserves his acclaim. At 8f to 10f he has no equal.
But he was not naturally inclined to be a stayer and assertions that he would have easily won an Arc if put to the task don't convince.
The way I see it Frankel was a raw enough beast which took a long time to tame. He was only risked twice beyond a mile, both times at the end of his career, by which time he was learing - just - to settle.
I am a fan, I was at Ascot for his swansong, he was spectacular and deserves his acclaim. At 8f to 10f he has no equal.
But he was not naturally inclined to be a stayer and assertions that he would have easily won an Arc if put to the task don't convince.
Sea the stars was a 139/140 horse, top class
on arc day didnt need to be at his best and posted a much lower figure
zarkava on 133 was clearly overrated
about frankel point
not sure he would have a won that arc, í think he would
about 10f he would have beaten easily and in a mile race he would have destroyed STS in a canter.
on arc day didnt need to be at his best and posted a much lower figure
zarkava on 133 was clearly overrated
about frankel point
not sure he would have a won that arc, í think he would
about 10f he would have beaten easily and in a mile race he would have destroyed STS in a canter.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Eclipse was a good race but had Rip Van Winkle got home up that Sandown hill......there was only one winner 2f out that day.
Tha is a discussion for another day but you cant change the fact RVW was a 111 rated horse at the time and he's beaten him 1 length,,,,,how the fook does that equate to 140??????
I would argue with him being a 140 horse at any time,
What you are saying is you think he's win a race like this :
Mill Reef
Dubai Millennium
Harbinger
Sea The Stars
Vaguely Noble
He never met anything like any of those.
Here are the horse that finished 2nd to him
2000 Guineas Delegator(Rated 115) by 1 1/2 lengths
Derby Fame and Glory (rated 111) by 1 3/4 lengths
Eclipse Rip Van Winkle (Rated 111) by 1 length
Juddmonte Mastercraftsman (Rated 122) 1 length
Champion Stakes Fame and Glory (rated 126) 2 1/2 lengths
Arc Youmzain (Rated 125) 2 lengths
I think your calculator needs fixed :lol:
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
This is where Rating become complete nonsense and punters are sold a complete lie to sell the sport to you.
Sea The Stars wins the 2000 Guineas and beats Rip Van Winkle 2 1/2 lengths
STS gets an OH of 121 Rip gets 115
They meet again in the Derby Sea The Stars beats him by 2 lengths
STS gets an OH of 124 Rip 119
They meet yet again in the Eclipse Sea The Stars all out wins by 1 length
And then it just gets silly for beating the same horse for the 3rd time but by a reduced margin he leaps up by 9 to 133
To keep thing even lets put Rip up as well so he goes up by 9 to 128
They justify it by bringing Conduit into it who was badly outpaced in the closing stage as you would expect because he was a St Leger winner never in a million years a 1m2f horse.
You could argue Conduit ran to his mark but that would make no allowance for him running at the wrong trip. Put that aside and you still can't justify any more than a 4 to 5 lbs rise.
Then when Conduit does get his trip he runs Sea The Stars closer which any good judge would expect him to do and the handicapper reduces STS rating back to where it should have been going into the race.
The truth is STS performance in the Arc was as good if not better than his eclipse win and the only reason Conduit got closer was the trip.
If I take his rating going into the Eclipse of 124 and add 5lbs he would have an OH of 129
Add to that 7lbs to coincide with the norm and you get a Timeform rating of around 136
That puts him up there with the likes of Shergar Allez France Generous El Gran Senor and Black Caviar.
It keeps him well away from Dancing Brave and Mill Reef.
Glad to listen to anyone who disagrees if they can say because of this this and this not just I have 142 for Sea The Stars I pulled it out my assh!le
Sea The Stars wins the 2000 Guineas and beats Rip Van Winkle 2 1/2 lengths
STS gets an OH of 121 Rip gets 115
They meet again in the Derby Sea The Stars beats him by 2 lengths
STS gets an OH of 124 Rip 119
They meet yet again in the Eclipse Sea The Stars all out wins by 1 length
And then it just gets silly for beating the same horse for the 3rd time but by a reduced margin he leaps up by 9 to 133
To keep thing even lets put Rip up as well so he goes up by 9 to 128
They justify it by bringing Conduit into it who was badly outpaced in the closing stage as you would expect because he was a St Leger winner never in a million years a 1m2f horse.
You could argue Conduit ran to his mark but that would make no allowance for him running at the wrong trip. Put that aside and you still can't justify any more than a 4 to 5 lbs rise.
Then when Conduit does get his trip he runs Sea The Stars closer which any good judge would expect him to do and the handicapper reduces STS rating back to where it should have been going into the race.
The truth is STS performance in the Arc was as good if not better than his eclipse win and the only reason Conduit got closer was the trip.
If I take his rating going into the Eclipse of 124 and add 5lbs he would have an OH of 129
Add to that 7lbs to coincide with the norm and you get a Timeform rating of around 136
That puts him up there with the likes of Shergar Allez France Generous El Gran Senor and Black Caviar.
It keeps him well away from Dancing Brave and Mill Reef.
Glad to listen to anyone who disagrees if they can say because of this this and this not just I have 142 for Sea The Stars I pulled it out my assh!le
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Was with the wrong trainer for the Arc. Henry was very domestic in his race targets.
Cecil was not interested,
The horse didnt need it, he was the best ever before the Arc of his 4yo and his last race beating Cirrus at his best on heavy ground was an amazing performance.
on pure figures Queen Anne is the best performance ever but his Guineas are something else
Unbeatable horse
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Highly re Rip Suny as I had my balls on him back at a mile:lol:. I clearly remember Reet and I saying how he had been cantering all over Sea the Stars 2f out in the Eclipse. Reet still has the 3 quid he won that day lol
It was a good win but I thought Hughsie gave Paco an awful ride and way too much to do.............. thankfully
Paco Boy was described by Hughsie as not being in the same county as Canford Cliffs describing him as a monster............He certainly beat Rip ver very easily yet he was rated only 127...........I suppose it depends on what end if Rip you come in fom where you end up putting him.
I was a fan incidentally but a much bigger fan of Canford Cliffs
It was a good win but I thought Hughsie gave Paco an awful ride and way too much to do.............. thankfully
Paco Boy was described by Hughsie as not being in the same county as Canford Cliffs describing him as a monster............He certainly beat Rip ver very easily yet he was rated only 127...........I suppose it depends on what end if Rip you come in fom where you end up putting him.
I was a fan incidentally but a much bigger fan of Canford Cliffs
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Henry won plenty abroad and sent Midday to the uSA in 2009 but by the time Frankel came on the scene he was terminally ill and if you remember could hardly walk let alone travel to France or the USA.
If he had beeen in good health with a horse like Frankel I doubt if he could have resisted a trip to the USA but we will never know,
As the title is racehorse legends not British legends and on the assumption they're going to go down the "household name" rather than the "top RPR/most prizemoney won" route, I'll guess:
Arkle
Red Rum
Desert Orchid
Kauto Star
Frankel
Mill Reef
Shergar
Nijinsky
reserving the right to second-guess that they might not want to remind everyone of the IRA connection with Shergar, in which case swap him out for A.N. Other - maybe Black Caviar, who managed to make it off the racing pages into general news thanks to her RA exploits.
Arkle
Red Rum
Desert Orchid
Kauto Star
Frankel
Mill Reef
Shergar
Nijinsky
reserving the right to second-guess that they might not want to remind everyone of the IRA connection with Shergar, in which case swap him out for A.N. Other - maybe Black Caviar, who managed to make it off the racing pages into general news thanks to her RA exploits.
Len Madeiros
Rookie
FFS! Estimate! I suppose, technically, the Queen does own those stamps, but Dunfermline would have been a better choice surely?
Frankel
Senior Jockey
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
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Jumps ones are fair enough.
I've at least heard of three of the inferior Flat yokes, but I genuinely have never heard of Estimate.
I've at least heard of three of the inferior Flat yokes, but I genuinely have never heard of Estimate.
Frankel
Senior Jockey
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Drug taking Royal filly on Royal Mail Stamps !
I can see the headlines already
I can see the headlines already